login   |    register
World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
Aeroscale P-47 Thunderbolt SIG
FalkeEins
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 862 posts
AeroScale: 684 posts
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2007 - 03:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Neil.
Welcome to the P-47 SIG.
I thought for a moment you were going to dive in with the answer to my little brain teaser!



..well actually... the answer was in front of me all the time (I think) - it's the He 111 that is currently in the RAF Museum Hendon - but was it really "used" by the 56th FG...? I thought it had just been painted up in 56th colours ..any pics of the machine ..?

while I'm here - perhaps you could point me in the direction of a view of Robert Johnson's NMF "LM-Q" named 'Penrod & Sam' In fact what is the a/c name a reference to ? I've got a copy of his memoir but rather disappointingly I can't find any answers there ....

cheers
Neil
f1matt
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Manitoba, Canada
Joined: August 13, 2006
KitMaker: 1,021 posts
AeroScale: 184 posts
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2007 - 08:53 AM UTC
An He 111 painted in 56th colours? A Heinkel? Do you know why? I could see a captured machine painted with just the stars and bars but, specific unit codes as well? That's different.

-Matt
FalkeEins
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 862 posts
AeroScale: 684 posts
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2007 - 10:13 AM UTC
Hi Matt,

..hope its not too cold out there on that ramp...!!

yes, I'm curious too ..... check this wiki page - about half way down - a pic of the He 111 taken on charge by the 56th FG - according to the caption it was later painted in 61st FS colours....Osprey in their 56th FG Elite booklet have gone the distance and illustrated it with red engine trim and HV codes - assuming they haven't just come up with a speculative profile..so annoying when they do that and don't tell you..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Boxted
f1matt
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Manitoba, Canada
Joined: August 13, 2006
KitMaker: 1,021 posts
AeroScale: 184 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 03:38 PM UTC
Well winter in YWG is always interesting. Gotta love pulling baggage carts through the snow! Actually it hasn't been too cold or even windy so far. Fingers crossed.

I remember a co-worker telling me that not to long ago we had a P-47 come through. Course I wasn't working that day.

Thanks for the link. It's an interesting read with some great photos too. More inspiration.

-Matt "the ramp rat"
lampie
#029
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,224 posts
AeroScale: 3,269 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 10:39 PM UTC
Hi All.
The Heinkel in Hendon was indeed used as a "hack" by the 56FG in 1945.
Neil.
Robert Johnson Information.

P-47D 42-25512 LM-Q
"Penrod and Sam" is certainly seems to be one of the more unusual names for a P-47 but its origin is surprisingly simple.
Johnsons crew chief at the time was Sgt J C Penrod, and Samuel was Robert Johnsons middle name,,hence "Penrod and Sam"
Im sure I have more photos of LM-Q in my reference library if you require them Neil.
Nige
FalkeEins
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 862 posts
AeroScale: 684 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2007 - 12:05 AM UTC

..super info Nige and thanks for the picture ! ..all I really need now is confirmation (or not ) that the rudder was yellow ..? Planning to model this subject for the Aces campaign....
lampie
#029
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,224 posts
AeroScale: 3,269 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2007 - 02:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text


..super info Nige and thanks for the picture ! ..all I really need now is confirmation (or not ) that the rudder was yellow ..? Planning to model this subject for the Aces campaign....



Hi Neil.
The designated colours for the 61/62/63FS were Red/Yellow/Blue.
In Feb/March 1944 the 56FG used these colours on the P-47s cowlings until they standardised with red.
The only photos I have to hand of 56FG P-47s with coloured rudders are taken at Boxted,where the 56FG moved to in mid April 1944. and these are Bubbletops.( No Bubbletops were flown from Halesworth by 56FG.
Robert Johnson scored is last victories on May 8th 1944 in LM-Q,which was the only T'bolt he flew while serving with 62FS, and was the taken off ops.
Heres another photo of Johnson with Penrod and Sam.
Probably taken on the same day as the previous photo, and showing 27 victory markings,(taking Rickenbakers record of 26),

LSP's decal sheet for 56FG aces includes LM-Q with a yellow rudder but no photos as yet.
I'll see what I can turn up when I get home in a week or so.
Nige
FalkeEins
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 862 posts
AeroScale: 684 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2007 - 07:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

[Probably taken on the same day as the previous photo, and showing 27 victory markings,(taking Rickenbakers record of 26),


thanks again ...didn't spot the two additional vics ..although they are there on the first pic....!
Thanks too for the LSP lead - the profile and blurb will be a great help. Amazing that we don't know exactly what the leading ETO US aces' aircraft looked like - apparently the rudder might well have been red....or more likely plain NMF


Holdfast
Staff MemberPresident
IPMS-UK KITMAKER BRANCH
#056
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,566 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2007 - 08:42 AM UTC
Hi you Thunderbolt lovers You may be interested to know that I have designed paint masks for a chequered P-47 cowling. The masks are designed for the Tamiya 1/48 P-47 but will fit the Hasegawa one although the cowling is a tad shorter, you probably wont notice. I have yet to scale it up for the Hasegawa 1/32 P-47 but there is no reason why they shouldnt fit, i will be trialling them on it soon. I have also designed and trial cut the nose art in the Hasegawa 1/32 scale kit for Mat T. Eaglestons mount, the Black skull and cross bones. I have also trial cut, with great success US Star and Bar insignia. If anyone is interested in paint masks for USAF (or USN or any other) then please contact me are vist my web site. Miracle Paint Masks

Mal
lampie
#029
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,224 posts
AeroScale: 3,269 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2007 - 11:27 PM UTC
@ Mal.
Thats great!,,maybe you ought to think about moving into canopy masks as well?
@Neil
Nice photo of 56FG T'bolts at Boxted
Robert Johnson flew Penrod and Sam when he transferred to the 62FS, and the rudder would definately not have been painted red. This was 61FS colours.
The cowling however, would have been red, as in the photo, signifying 56FG.
Your photo though, agrees with what I said in an earlier post about not having seen any photos of 56FG T'bolts with coloured rudders pre D-Day.
Robert Johnson was taken off operations in early May 44, so personally I would be inclined to go for a nmf rudder. Hopefully I will be able to find a photo from the same set as the ones that have been posted here showing the ruddder .
T'bolt nearest the camera in your photo shows "Anamosa III" being piloted by Cpt Russel Westfall. The nmf razorback behind wasnt allocated a regular pilot according to my records.
Nige
Holdfast
Staff MemberPresident
IPMS-UK KITMAKER BRANCH
#056
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,566 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2007 - 04:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

@ Mal.
Thats great!,,maybe you ought to think about moving into canopy masks as well?



There are 3 reasons why, at the moment, I won't be doing canopy masks:
1. I actually don't use them and think that using Parafilm-M is far easier.
2. The best canopy masks are cut in Kabuki tape (Tamiya tape) and I haven't found a source for this tape in bulk.
3. There is far to much to do in terms of national markings.

I am considering doing some camo masks, even though I would always freehand everything other than hard edged camo. Italian smoke rings, Luftwaffe zig zag to name a couple for consideration. My main focus though is markings, most of which can be easily painted on if you can mask them.

I also have plans for something else which is probably far more worthwhile than canopy masks and this will be my secret project (SP) for 2008

Mal
lampie
#029
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,224 posts
AeroScale: 3,269 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2007 - 09:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I also have plans for something else which is probably far more worthwhile than canopy masks and this will be my secret project (SP) for 2008

Mal



Good heavens Mal,,are you planning on actually finishing a kit???????

Nige
lampie
#029
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,224 posts
AeroScale: 3,269 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2007 - 11:55 AM UTC
As 2008 dawns its time to celebrate
The SIG now has its own gallery!
AEROSCALE P-47 SIG GALLERY
Please post your photos of completed Thunderbolts there.
Build blogs are of course welcome both here and in the forums, but please only completed Thunderbolts in the SIG gallery.
Happy New Year everyone.
Cave Tonitrum!
Nige
FalkeEins
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 862 posts
AeroScale: 684 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 09:16 AM UTC
..and to you too Nige !...

....a couple more questions if I may please....

the underwing tanks in the colour Boxted pic look blue ...where they..? I was sort of expecting them to be nmf ....and does anyone have a close-up of the belly tank attachment points...they are clearly visible on Johnson's D-21 (standard fitting..? ) found this image but a closer view would be appreciated



lampie
#029
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,224 posts
AeroScale: 3,269 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 11:06 AM UTC
Hi Neil.
Hope the hangover wasnt too large.
Im still on tour so last night was a non event for me Im afraid.
Anyway,,back to business.
Belly shackles.


The underwing drop tanks in the Robert Johnson pic are the standard 108 gallon type made from glue impregnated paper. These were either silver or grey and I have an excellent colour photo of silver ones which shows the dark bands visible in the 1st Robert Johnson picture to be red. The rear tip of the tank also looks as though it may be red in the RJ photo but in my colour photo that area is silver.
I will scan and post the photo next week when Im home.
Looking forward to seeing your P-47 come together when the campaign starts!
Nige
FalkeEins
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 862 posts
AeroScale: 684 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 01:25 AM UTC
..thanks Nige..

...erm..got a confession to make ..I've sort of started the RJ machine already - using the Academy Razorback kit ...in fact nearly finished it ...goes together easily enough ..but doesn't quite look right in a number of areas, rear fuselage too thin, wheels all wrong, turbocharger vents too small...improved it where I can but gonna have to do another one for the campaign..
lampie
#029
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,224 posts
AeroScale: 3,269 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 01:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

..thanks Nige..

...erm..got a confession to make ..I've sort of started the RJ machine already - using the Academy Razorback kit ...in fact nearly finished it ...goes together easily enough ..but doesn't quite look right in a number of areas, rear fuselage too thin, wheels all wrong, turbocharger vents too small...improved it where I can but gonna have to do another one for the campaign..



Boo,,yellow card!
Its good that your taking your research so seriously that your actually building a practice kit Wheres the photos?
I expect the entry of the campaign from you after this,,LOL.
Nige
FalkeEins
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 862 posts
AeroScale: 684 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 03:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Wheres the photos?



..well here's one. Moved in from the garage - its freezing cold today - and the kitchen table is taking a hammering while 'she who must be obeyed' is at work...

...as I was saying - still a way to go but it doesn't quite look right in a number of areas. Rear fuselage doesn't look 'chunky' enough while the wheel hubs are wrong, turbocharger vents were too small and were drilled out and rebuild with card....the red cowl front isn't quite wide enough perhaps, but after a masking disaster the first time around I'm not touching it again...

lampie
#029
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,224 posts
AeroScale: 3,269 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 03:56 AM UTC
Hi Neil.
I see what you mean. It all looks a bit,,well,,like a toy I suppose.Those wheels are just all wrong.
Excellent dry run for your campaign entry though. What have you used for the nmf?
May I suggest the Tamiya Razorback for your campaign entry?
Keep the pics coming though,,and the questions of course, as research is a main part of this SIG and your questions will assist other people too.
Keeps me busy while Im away from the bench as well
Nige
FalkeEins
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 862 posts
AeroScale: 684 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 04:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

.
IExcellent dry run for your campaign entry though. What have you used for the nmf?
May I suggest the Tamiya Razorback for your campaign entry?
Keep the pics coming though,,and the questions of course



..er..thanks ! Did I mention that the kit engine is severely undernourished too ..so small it almost falls out of the cowl .. plus the 'scoop' part that fits inside the lower cowl doesn't, if you see what I mean...wasn't sure whether to do this red or interior green or even ZC ..but went with the green in the end ....what is it with Academy... they seem to promise so much only to disappoint......by the way the nmf is Halfords Aluminium..great stuff...

lampie
#029
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,224 posts
AeroScale: 3,269 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 05:51 AM UTC
I know what you mean about Academy Neil.
Dont even mention the decals,,lol.
The Tamiya Jugs are for my money the best there are in 1:48 and 1:72.
In 1:48 theres also the "M". Hopefully we'll see a Tamiya "N" one day. A bit more of a reworking is required for that,not just a change of fusalage fillet.
Loon Models do a very good "C" cowling for the Tamiya kit.
Maybe we'll even see a short run "B" one day?
Nige
HawkeyeV
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Wisconsin, United States
Joined: September 20, 2006
KitMaker: 319 posts
AeroScale: 129 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 12:27 PM UTC
Okay all of you P-47 fans, something completely different...something I call 'Fire Boss'. A WIP conception of a aerial fire commanders aircraft that would be flown to act as a Forward Air Controller over a major forest fire directing in aerial tankers to targets along the fire line.

What better than a powerful and rugged warbird such as the P-47 that is able to tolerate the wear and tear of close air support in hostile flying conditions. A this point of the build I've got a little touch up to do and add some of the smaller delicate parts.



1:48 Hasegawa P-47M built OOB.
HawkeyeV
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Wisconsin, United States
Joined: September 20, 2006
KitMaker: 319 posts
AeroScale: 129 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 05:21 PM UTC
Here she is completed. I still have to add some subtle weathering to show she works for a living.

lampie
#029
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,224 posts
AeroScale: 3,269 posts
Posted: Monday, January 07, 2008 - 05:02 AM UTC
That stunning Gerald!
A very interesting idea for a "what if?".
Dont T'bolts look great "out of uniform".
Im hoping to do an example of a National Guard P-47 in the future.
Please post some pictures in the P47 SIG GALLERY
Nige
f1matt
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Manitoba, Canada
Joined: August 13, 2006
KitMaker: 1,021 posts
AeroScale: 184 posts
Posted: Monday, January 07, 2008 - 10:32 AM UTC
I don't know if the water bombers could keep up with your "bird dog" P-47. Cool idea. Great model.

-Matt