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World War II: USA
Aircraft of the United States in WWII.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
Avenger or Dauntless?-Identify
propboy44256
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Ohio, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 02:18 AM UTC
I had a oppertunity to get up close and personal with this fine piece of Heavy Metal.

This looks like a Avenger w/o the bubble Cockpit on back???? I have trouble telling the Dauntless from Avenger.... Did the play the same roles in combat???

Thanks in Advance

Part-timer
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Georgia, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 02:25 AM UTC
Avengers were torpedo bombers, replacing the Devastators. They bombed level. Dauntlesses were dive-bombers, which were replaced by Helldivers. They bombed, obviously, from a dive.

I'm pretty sure the aircraft pictured is an Avenger. Among other things, the small MG on the bottom of the fuselage, the shape of the vertical stabilizer fairing, and the depth of the fuselage make me think this. It's clearly a torpedo-bomber, as evidenced by the bay doors on the bottom (open). Dauntlesses, like (nearly?) all diver bombers didn't have bays, but rather struts that kicked the bomb out past the prop circle.

There were quite a few Avengers made without the rear turret. I don't know if they were made by Grumman or by another manufacturer. I'm sure somebody here knows a heck of a lot more about these subjects than I.
warlock0322
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North Carolina, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 02:27 AM UTC
Looks like a Dauntless from here. I am going by the fact that the picture does really show where the rear facing twin 50's turret would be below are a couple links that have pretty good pictures of both
http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Tarpon_Avenger.html
http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Dauntless.htm
I could be wrong though but I hope this helps in your question
Paul
chip250
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Wisconsin, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 02:52 AM UTC
Dude, are you kidding me? That is a Grumman Avenger! You can tell by the bomb bay doors! And the height!

~Chip :-)
slodder
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North Carolina, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 02:52 AM UTC
That's an Avenger with some modifications to the canopy.
Check out the vision port on the bottom 1/2 behind the wing. That's the radio operators area.
The bi-fold doors are classic Avenger torpedo bay doors.
The rounded appearance of the body is typical Avenger.
The vertical downward cutout in the rear of the canopy is where the turret would normally sit.

Its probably been coverted to a trainer or the turret could not be restored or something like that.
Tin_Can
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Florida, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 02:58 AM UTC
This is definetley an Avenger. Here are the dead give aways for it being an Avenger:

-No dive flaps-Dauntless has dive flaps.

-Observation window for radio operator/photographer located under the '25'-Dauntless is a two seater and doesn't have this.

-Torpedo bay doors-Dauntless doesn't have an internal bay therefore no bay doors.

-Shape of the elevator control surfaces

-General overall shape of the fuselage and canopy

-Rear landing gear is different between avenger and dauntless

-If I'm not mistake the avenger main gear rotate away from the cockpit when retracting while the dauntless rotates towards the fuselage.

Also, starting with the TBM-3, a large number of them were delivered with the dorsal turret removed. Reference here.

Hope that helps.
ukgeoff
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England - North East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 03:00 AM UTC
That is a post-war development of the Grumman Avenger, the TBM-3S. They were used in the Anti-submarine warfare role, the space where the turret used to be was used for extra electronic detection gear.
Thor
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Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 03:01 AM UTC
Definately an Avenger !

As others have already said:
- typical Avenger body
- torpedo doors say it all
- MG/ radio operator at the bottom of the hull

Part-timer
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Georgia, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 03:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Also, starting with the TBM-3, a large number of them were delivered with the dorsal turret removed. Reference here.



Thanks, Tin-Can. I knew someone would have some info on the ones without the turrets.


Quoted Text

That is a post-war development of the Grumman Avenger, the TBM-3S. They were used in the Anti-submarine warfare role, the space where the turret used to be was used for extra electronic detection gear.



Alright, who's right on this specific plane? Is this just a late war one without the turret, or is this actually the anti-submarine variant? It sounds like it could be either, if we're only considering the lack of a dorsal turret. Any way to sort this out from the picture?
Part-timer
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Georgia, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 03:21 AM UTC
One observation as to whether this is a WWII-era Avenger with turret omitted or a post-war anti-sub variant: It looks as though there are little Japanese flag/kill markings below the pilot's station. That would seem to suggest a wartime bird.

Or creative license by the restorers of the plane. Just a thought.
ukgeoff
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England - North East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 03:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

One observation as to whether this is a WWII-era Avenger with turret omitted or a post-war anti-sub variant: It looks as though there are little Japanese flag/kill markings below the pilot's station. That would seem to suggest a wartime bird.

Or creative license by the restorers of the plane. Just a thought.



Most likely creative licence, since the aircraft is finished in the Battle of the Atlantic gull grey and white scheme (though its possable some were relocated without being repainted)
AJLaFleche
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Massachusetts, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 04:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

One observation as to whether this is a WWII-era Avenger with turret omitted or a post-war anti-sub variant: It looks as though there are little Japanese flag/kill markings below the pilot's station. That would seem to suggest a wartime bird.

Or creative license by the restorers of the plane. Just a thought.



The paint scheme is Atlantic. The kill markings could be swastikas, as it looks like the red is on the outside of the markings. Unfortunately, I can't enlarge it enough to be sure without loosing definition.
Part-timer
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Georgia, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 05:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The paint scheme is Atlantic. The kill markings could be swastikas, as it looks like the red is on the outside of the markings.



I agree. So, does that tell us whether this is, in fact, a WWII-era plane? Or is it still likely to be creative license on a post-war anti-sub variant?
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 06:05 AM UTC
Didn't they add the red stripe to the national insignia after WW2? Most likely a WW2 Atlantic bird that flew off of an escort carrier. No enemy fighters to worry about, just the submarines to sink. The kill markings may be the German naval ensign for number of enemy ships/subs destroyed.
PorkChop
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Wisconsin, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 06:27 AM UTC
I wouldn't trust any Warbird marking to be accuarte to that specific aircraft. Take a look at any warbird calendar that includes a desription of the A/C and it is usually a post-war late-war aircraft PAINTED TO LOOK like an actual aircraft. I don't fault the owners either, as rivet counters etc here, you gotta hand it to these guys (and cut them serious slack) who keep these planes in the air for us to enjoy.
Aside from the Hellcat, I think the avenger is top on WWII a/c list (Man do we need a new 1/32 Hellcat, anyone know when Trumpeter is releasing one?)
I have seen this Avenger at Oshkosh on two occassions, however my photos are packed away right now, but I believe they are Swasticas on the side of the a/c.
propboy44256
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Ohio, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 10:35 AM UTC
Thanks for all the reply guys, This photo was taken last year in the Akron/Canton OHIO area.. The original 35mm pictures are sharp. I have just purchesd the Accurate Minatures Avenger AND Dauntless!, They are next on list to build....
ZoomieE7
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 11:08 AM UTC
But look at the clothing of the people around the aircraft. It's a -3s painted in spurious camo and markings. Atlantic ASW acheme with meatball kill markings. And y'all for got the main id feature: Avenger wing was mid mounted, Dauntless was low-wing. Regards, Rob
propboy44256
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Ohio, United States
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Posted: Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 12:06 AM UTC
Here is another bad view, This was in Akron Ohio, Windy July day 2002





Quoted Text


Quoted Text

One observation as to whether this is a WWII-era Avenger with turret omitted or a post-war anti-sub variant: It looks as though there are little Japanese flag/kill markings below the pilot's station. That would seem to suggest a wartime bird.

Or creative license by the restorers of the plane. Just a thought.



The paint scheme is Atlantic. The kill markings could be swastikas, as it looks like the red is on the outside of the markings. Unfortunately, I can't enlarge it enough to be sure without loosing definition.

viper29_ca
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New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 02:22 AM UTC
Yes guys this is definatly an Avenger.....I have a flight of about 8 - 10 birds located about 15 mins away from me at the local airport...they have been converted to water bombers and spray planes for the forest fire service and pest control...such as the sruce bud worm and tent catapillars.

You always know when the spring of the year is here, as they do the spring time maintenance on the AC and they are up flying around to make sure these 60 yr old aircaft are going fly on for another year. Nothing like the sound of a radial engine first thing in the morning. These are slowly being replaced by newer, faster, cheaper to maintain (cause lets face it there aren't too many around for parts!!) aircraft. A few years ago we had got an old example that they are going to restore into an example of a Spruce Bud Worm spray plane to go on display as a museum piece....these were all Bud Worm Sprya planes at one time....but got remodeled into firefighting bombers, when this new one showed up....most of the paint had been faded away from the fuselage..but you could still make out the stars and bars behind the cockpit, as if she had come direct from the war in the Pacific!!. Quite the site to see these fighting forest fires!!!

If you guys were interested...I could go down and snap some pics of the planes.....don't know how close I can get to them....but if I ask nice...they might let me on the otherside of the fence.

Meanwhile...here are some pics of a friend of mine who built a model of one of the Avengers when it was still a Bud Worm spray plane.


airwarrior
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 03:08 PM UTC
Thats an avenger! #1 dauntlesses don't have that thing on the bottom
#2 thier not that fat
#3 dauntlesses havean open cockpit on the back withan MG
#4they don't have windows on the side
#5 they have holes in the flaps
airwarrior
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 03:14 PM UTC
with my sharp young eyes I can see that they are swasticas.......the kills a re little red flags with white dots,and since the pixels arent small enough it doesn't show the swasticas in the little white dots
WymanV
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Wisconsin, United States
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Posted: Friday, May 23, 2003 - 07:28 PM UTC
This Avenger has been to Oshkosh for the Fly In a few times. It was for sale a couple of years ago, but I don't see it on the board now.

Ken F.