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Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
IDF Panther Tank?
Graywolfgang
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Posted: Monday, May 23, 2011 - 05:05 PM UTC
As for as the engine and engine deck goes, I wouldn’t change much. I would leave the exhaust alone to, or maybe add some sparkaresters to them. The Israelis used the Cummings V-8 engine in the Sherman’s to replace the old radial engine in the M-4A1s and the Ford GAU-V-8 engine in the M-4A3s. The Cummings engine was just small enough to fit. Got to remember the Sherman is a lot smaller than the Panther. The engine room is a lot larger too. You could get a nice V-12 Caterpillar engine in there. That would be much better. Only a little pluming work to do.
The main problem or weakness the Panther really had was in the final drives and Transmission. If you could get your hands on a good supply of Tiger II type Tranies and final drives like what would have been used in the Panther II.
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Monday, May 23, 2011 - 10:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As far as 105mm guns are discussed: What gun is the Argentinian TAM using?


Essentially the same as pictured here, the Royal Ordnance L7.

Paul
gogs007
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Scotland, United Kingdom
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Posted: Monday, May 23, 2011 - 06:30 AM UTC
i am looking forward to seeing how this gets on
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
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Posted: Monday, May 23, 2011 - 06:18 AM UTC
As far as 105mm guns are discussed: What gun is the Argentinian TAM using? That thing is essentially a "Marder IFV with an attitude"
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Monday, May 23, 2011 - 05:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The turret ring of a standard Panther is large enough to handle the L7.



Good info. The French 105 was, indeed, a low recoil weapon. For the L7, maybe add some gussets on the sides of the Panther gun rotor to indicate some reinforcement of the trunnions.

Similarly for the engine deck. Keep the bulk of the Panther deck and make new air inlets & outlets to indicate a new engine. Same with the exhausts. New exhausts are a frequent sign of a different engine and easy to make, to boot.

A simple brake could be made from flat styrene sheet put together like a welded one in real life, much like the actual M51 brakes.

All that aside, though, putting a 120mm into that turret ring might be pushing things just that much too far. .

Paul
Graywolfgang
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Posted: Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 04:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Duncan,

If you are using an L7 105mm (as you show in the photo), make sure you add a honkin' big muzzle brake. The Panther turret ring really isn't large enough to manage the recoil. Remember, for the M51 the Israelis both moved the trunions forward and used a modified French 105 that was both shortened and had the brake to reduce the recoil enough to fit into the Sherman turret ring.

Regards,

Paul




It was’t so much the length of the recoil of the L7. The turret of the Sherman couldn’t handle the recoil pressure of the L7. The French 105 is a low pressure gun, where as the L7 is a High Velocity Gun / high pressure. When they installed the L7 the turrets cracked around the trunions on recoil. The L7 would be a much better choice for the Panther. The turret ring of a standard Panther is large enough to handle the L7.
Klinker
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2011 - 10:16 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Upgrading the Panther to a Diesel can be done without enlarging the engine bay. Even more so if you go the "Tschechoslowakien" road since IIRC Skoda actually worked on a Diesel for the Panther and had a prototype that would fit. And after some more checks: The Leopard I powerplant (850HP diesel) fits the Panther engine room and would be a nice fit HP-wise. Or use the somewhat smaller 680HP plant from the french AMX-30 (Another Panther follow-up after all)



If I win the Lottery I'm getting me a Leopard powered Panther for sure!!! I remember at Duxford IMW (Red September = I think) years ago, Bob Fleming telling of a Chieftain with an Leopard power pack in it ! which out performed the original, but things being the way there way wasn't approved!

I tried a mocked-up M60 engine deck / back-end today and it looked shocking, soooooo after reading this I'm going back to the original set-up with a few tweaks.
I keep the center engine access lid but change either side where the radiators, oil coolers and fans etc... would go!.... and for the exhaust I thinking of using the Panther flame trap exhausts, but a horizontal 2 into 1 affair with a single flame trap running high across the back of the rear, below the rear deck line, but still out of harms way!

This engine deck option also opens the way for the JagdPanther with the 120mm gun, (as I doubt I could get lucky again and score another M60 for cheap) so all being well this Panther will get a stablemate latter on!

mmeier
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2011 - 05:19 PM UTC
Upgrading the Panther to a Diesel can be done without enlarging the engine bay. Even more so if you go the "Tschechoslowakien" road since IIRC Skoda actually worked on a Diesel for the Panther and had a prototype that would fit. And after some more checks: The Leopard I powerplant (850HP diesel) fits the Panther engine room and would be a nice fit HP-wise. Or use the somewhat smaller 680HP plant from the french AMX-30 (Another Panther follow-up after all)
Klinker
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2011 - 11:16 AM UTC
Good point Paul about the muzzle break, I know I'm pushing it with the 105 but I looks good and this is 'What-If' .
I was looking for a M51 to kit bash but the M60 came up wayyyyy cheaper but a M51 105 was my prefared choice, we shall see!
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2011 - 06:06 AM UTC
Duncan,

If you are using an L7 105mm (as you show in the photo), make sure you add a honkin' big muzzle brake. The Panther turret ring really isn't large enough to manage the recoil. Remember, for the M51 the Israelis both moved the trunions forward and used a modified French 105 that was both shortened and had the brake to reduce the recoil enough to fit into the Sherman turret ring.

Regards,

Paul
padawan_82
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Posted: Friday, May 20, 2011 - 10:55 PM UTC
interesting what if you got here Duncan i'm going to be following this one with great interest
Klinker
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Posted: Friday, May 20, 2011 - 05:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

A couple things to consider (BTW I love this idea):

If the Panther has been upgunned the French 105 seen on the M51, then the ammo storage would become a problem. You might consider sacrificing the bow gunner for more ammo stowage, just like the Firefly.

If you go further down that road you find that you've eliminated the radio operator. It then makes sense to add a radio bustle to the turret, again like the Firefly, which also brings the crew jobs into alignment with Sherman & Brit practice with the loader operating the radio. You might think of angling the walls of such a bustle to mimic the turret wall angles. Just cause it'd look cool.

If changing the engine (& I think you should) the Israelis would likely go fo rsomething a little larger than the 460 hp Cummins fitted to the M51. The Panther is much heavier thatn the Sherman and would need a larger diesel. This would implt that perhaps the readr face of the hull should be bulged or extended (as were the M51s) to fit the new engine.

Just a few thoughts. Looking forward to seeing this one.

Paul



Great mind think alike Paul!!! I am doing away with the bow Mg completely with the ball mount being removed (or not glued on ) I got the idea from how the IDF modified their MBT Cent's and I will also cover up the radio operators hatch possibly with some Armour angled towards the Turret! As the IDF operate over huge areas they carry loads of spare so a un-designed ??? as yet basket/cage will run from the turret seam below the cupola back and round the new turret extension carrying wheels water & Ammo cans etc, etc...
I already cut out the rear engine deck as that's not going to be right and the rear/back will be cut and shut to take a M60 rear section...

Right Ho.... very, very early days.....



I just wanted to get some motivation, noting is much glued as blue-tac is being the man holding stuff on/up!
A Dragon 'Erzatz M10' has given up it's mantlet which will become a more modern version of the late war 'chin' mantlet.
The Turret has been cut off just between the cupola seem and the edge of the back of the turret ready for a big turret extension/bin, also cut out is the rear deck as Detroit diesel awaits!
I plan on adding a applique Armour too.......... but that's a longggggggggggg way off, tonight I'll try and finish the turret extension tonight!
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Friday, May 20, 2011 - 04:17 PM UTC
A couple things to consider (BTW I love this idea):

If the Panther has been upgunned the French 105 seen on the M51, then the ammo storage would become a problem. You might consider sacrificing the bow gunner for more ammo stowage, just like the Firefly.

If you go further down that road you find that you've eliminated the radio operator. It then makes sense to add a radio bustle to the turret, again like the Firefly, which also brings the crew jobs into alignment with Sherman & Brit practice with the loader operating the radio. You might think of angling the walls of such a bustle to mimic the turret wall angles. Just cause it'd look cool.

If changing the engine (& I think you should) the Israelis would likely go fo rsomething a little larger than the 460 hp Cummins fitted to the M51. The Panther is much heavier thatn the Sherman and would need a larger diesel. This would implt that perhaps the readr face of the hull should be bulged or extended (as were the M51s) to fit the new engine.

Just a few thoughts. Looking forward to seeing this one.

Paul
Klinker
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Tasmania, Australia
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Posted: Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 07:16 PM UTC
Here's my background story to how the IDF get hold of Panthers (artistic license abound) for the 'What If' campaign......


.........."So the Panther gets the green light, original I was going use a Dragon Smart kit as a base, but I realized i was going to be doing quite a bit of modification so I got hold of Tamiya Panther Type G Early Version of the every faithful fleebay.

Mods will be 105mm main gun, .5 Brownings & FN's, Reactive Armour, a modified turret with M60 optics etc (thanks to MMeier for that idea) and other IDF mods etc, etc from an alternative 1980's

Right Ho background story......

Fact.... In the 1950's Israel approached the Czechs about purchasing Hetzers from them the deal came to naught as the Czech's kept playing around and altering the price so the IDF went to the French and bought Shermans from them.
The Hetzer's ended up being sold to the Swiss Army about 160 odd of them.

What If.... the deal goes through and as a sweetener to keep the Isrealis on side the Czechs throw in all the Panther they have about 200 or so including about 15 BergePanther ( Did you know .... the Czech railways used BergePanther up and till the 1980's)
The French even keener to get the IDF deal back on with them offers up all their Panther along with plenty of wrecks for spares to get the deal for the 800 plus Shermans the IDF will eventually buy of them.
Other panthers are source from various places and various means?

Both deals happen and the IDF ends up with a force of about 300 Panthers along side its Shermans and are first used in the Sinai War and although there are allot of breakdowns the tanks perform well. The Panthers are up against the T34/55 and JS3's and in capable well train hands (against a not so well trained enemy) make for a feared presence on the battlefield actually out waying its actual performance, but because of this and other factors the IDF decided to keep them on.

Even as Centurions and M60 are bought the Panthers soldier on fondly regarded by their crews ... upgraded over the years into the final mark of Super Panther with Detroit diesel / Auto transmission and a Royal Ordnance 105mm main gun.
Latter as the Panthers really begin to show their age they are pensioned off into reserve forces with about 50 Hull's being converted into a 'Achzarit' (style) urban combat vehicle".........



The 'Archzarit idea is my get out of jail-free card if I stuff up cutting the Panthers turret
I have the Tamiya Panther G kit and an Academy M60 Blazer, plus a lot of extra bits & pieces from 2x Dragon Panther smart kits, strewth you get a lot!!
My aim is to build a practical what-if, this is why I'm using a standard turret but with M60 optics sights/upgrades.

The JagdPanther with a Cheiftain 120mm is an excellent idea, if (BIG 'if') I go ok, I may just build that to go along side the Panther.
I actually got a M50 75mm to use but it didn't look the part, it looked like a standard Panther with a different muzzle brake, I did think about an early IDF version just post-French delivery with a few upgrades but this is 'What-If' so I'm going full on!

I was trying to get a Translation of 'Panther' in Hebrew then get the English pronunciation, in a similar idea to = 'Achzarit' anybody help?
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
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Posted: Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 10:47 AM UTC
The Bundeswehr owns a Panther A (Command) with a Leopard I diesel. This is the vehicle in Munster tank museum. Maybe there are some pictures of that to be found showing the engine deck. The vehicle is in running condition.

Israel used the French 75mm on their M50 Sherman variants. The E50/E75 was designed for guns up to 105mm so maybe using this on a Panther chassis works.

And finally how about combining the british L11 120mm gun with a Jagdpanther chassis?
vonHengest
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 03:47 AM UTC
If you're going to be taking on any surgery to the rear deck, you may want to consider an upgrade to a relatively modern British or American diesel powerplant and a newly fabricated exhaust.
jowady
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Posted: Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 03:33 AM UTC
You could always go with the IDF acquiring Panthers ready built from France (who IIRC had about a regiment in service postwar.) If you do that I would look to the weaknesses of the panther, britttle armor and a pretty poor transmission, as well as problems traversing the turret, then just let your imagination take you to solve those problems, as well as to modernize the vehicle.
Klinker
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 10:40 PM UTC
Bob.... thanks for the input some good idea's there, here's what I'm going to build

Panther G, basic late war surplus stock (from where? well er... it is 'What if')
rebuilt engine deck hinting at a Detroit diesel, I've gone with the standard turret but will have a lot of mods.
105mm main gun .5 Brownings and FN's and a 'Urdan' cupola to name a few ideas rolling around the old Noggin!

Also I am remembering what Steve Riley said... "I say do it, and give your creativity free rein!"... very good advice indeed!

Wayne..... I've joined I was going with a IDF Hetzer, a real nearly/what if but changed my mind (JellyFish moment ... ) at the last minute!

Lou..... 'Project Cockamemie-balderdash' is real just in the early stages, please bare with me as 1. I want to do a good job and 2. this is the first Model I've ever shown on here so be gentle...

Regards Duncan.
Spades
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 08:39 AM UTC
Why would a panther in IDF service be preposterous ?!

Heck, didnt Israel use ME-109's in the beginning.

Duncan, you go ahead with that cockamemie idea of yours. Post pictures of the Panther or its all just balderdash !!!
AgentG
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 02:05 AM UTC
Duncan,

I think you need to join our "What If?" campaign, bring this preposterous Panther, and build the heck out of it !

More more more I say!

G

panzerbob01
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 02:00 AM UTC
Sounds like a way-COOL idea, to me!

What a bit of turn-about! Israelis driving Panthers. And more fun still, fighting Panzer IV! Deeee-lish!

In the What IF mode, I can see perhaps two different scenarios:

1) An early - post-war adaptation of the Panther G right along the "Frenchification" model as has been poked at above - pretty much taking the available G and adding in the "ex-US" MG and some other bits (maybe keeping the German OVM and rear boxes, and also perhaps adding racks & German gascans (there being any number of those around), a spare wheel rack, and an early version of the over-barrel light).

2) A later, up-graded version: I would go with the Schmalturm because it would offer that new gun-sight set-up, and would have increased survivability (an issue near and dear to Israelis), with a bustle box or rack, maybe some applique armor bits, up-dated spot-light set-up. This newer (alternative 1970's) tank would also come with some adaptations for urban warfare: screens and/or shields over or around ventilation openings, mine ejectors, smoke bomb racks, etc. which show up on real Israeli equipment. A shielded commander's MG would be a cool addition. Maybe also some sort of rear-deck personnel - carrying arrangements? And think "the local epidemic of RPGs"... The Israelis might also have added modified schurzen on the lower hull sides, and reactive armor could be a feature.

You can be sure that this newer tank would come with lots more commo stuff - so there should be multiple antennae of different types...

I think this newer model would also have some version of steel-wheels (just because. no real notion as to WHY!).

One thing I think would have HAD to happen would have been engine changes to cope with the historic over-heating and fire issues - some external mods to increase ventilation would maybe be in order?

Just some wacky opines, of course!

What and how-ever you go, this sounds like a neat WHAT IF project and I look forward to seeing whatever comes of it!

Bob
Klinker
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 10:10 PM UTC
Hi Fred, thanks for you input, your second variant is roughly what I am going to build, I am now building this Model as part of the 'What If' campaign and had to wait for start date so updates soon.


Regards Duncan
Graywolfgang
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 08:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks again MBR you've raised some good points again, I will be combining some of the M6O, AMX etc elements as you suggested.
Been looking in on the 'IDF furum' here too! Wow some fantastic stuff on there, plus I was amazed how much 1/35 IDF conversion and kit is available out there.

I've ordered quite a few bits and bobs from fleabay now it's just a matter of waiting for them to roll up from all points North of here!
I haven't done a build blog before so this will be all new for me but bare with me once parts and things start coming together I will start putting up some pictures.




From what I do remember reading a long time back the Israelis did try to acquire some Panthers from France, but a no go.
Take a strait Panther G add a 30 cal in the bow a 50cal up top and add a little more armor and you would have a good candidate for the first round. Then do a Panther G-1 with a new engine, air filters, lights and such. You would have to come up with a different name for it like they did for the Sherman’s ( M50 & M51)
Klinker
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Posted: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 10:03 PM UTC
Thanks again MBR you've raised some good points again, I will be combining some of the M6O, AMX etc elements as you suggested.
Been looking in on the 'IDF furum' here too! Wow some fantastic stuff on there, plus I was amazed how much 1/35 IDF conversion and kit is available out there.

I've ordered quite a few bits and bobs from fleabay now it's just a matter of waiting for them to roll up from all points North of here!
I haven't done a build blog before so this will be all new for me but bare with me once parts and things start coming together I will start putting up some pictures.
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
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Posted: Monday, February 07, 2011 - 07:00 AM UTC
Why is it "preposterous"?

It's certainly no more "preposterous" than that MIG Productions walking KV2, or the scratch-built U.S. Rubble Walker (superbly done, BTW) shown here just recently.

Plus the Syrians had Panzer IVs, and were still using them in 1967. So why not a "What If" Israeli Panther?

I say do it, and give your creativity free rein!

- Steve