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Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
IDF Panther Tank?
salt6
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: February 17, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 05:25 AM UTC
Here was my take a few years ago.





HermannB
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Bayern, Germany
Joined: October 14, 2008
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 10:35 AM UTC
Wouldn`t the 105 mm gun overstress the turret? Adding some ERA blocks and FN MAG`s? Cool idea anyway.
Klinker
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Tasmania, Australia
Joined: December 26, 2009
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 03:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Here was my take a few years ago.








Great build, your turret extension is the same as my original MK1 turret, keep going excellent work.
Seeing all these IDF Panthers appearing on here is fantastic so l will pull my finger out ! and re-start work on the old girl shortly....

Thanks guys it feels great to have inspired so many great builds ... Please keep posting your progresses .
salt6
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Oklahoma, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 07:43 PM UTC
I guess you should go with a 90mm but the 105mm was already in my stash.
easyco69
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 09:07 PM UTC
my question concerning the Hetzer. Since the barrel end of the 75 mm Pak 39 L/48 gun was a modified version of the 75 mm StuK 40 L/48 , which was in the PZ IV ...why didn't they use a muzzle break since the barrel was threaded already? I seen pictures of the Hetzer & Jagdpanzer IV L48 with threaded barrel ends but no muzzle break.
We see the Swiss version used the muzzle break.
I read muzzle breaks were used for keeping your target inline during sustained fire...recoil management...flash suppression...what about increasing shot velocity? Could someone with knowledge verify any misconceptions of the muzzle break?
Were they used on rifled barrels only?
Nice darn IDF Panther by the way..great work. I like the IDF Sherman.
bots1141
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: October 14, 2013
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 10:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

my question concerning the Hetzer. Since the barrel end of the 75 mm Pak 39 L/48 gun was a modified version of the 75 mm StuK 40 L/48 , which was in the PZ IV ...why didn't they use a muzzle break since the barrel was threaded already? I seen pictures of the Hetzer & Jagdpanzer IV L48 with threaded barrel ends but no muzzle break.
We see the Swiss version used the muzzle break.
I read muzzle breaks were used for keeping your target inline during sustained fire...recoil management...flash suppression...what about increasing shot velocity? Could someone with knowledge verify any misconceptions of the muzzle break?
Were they used on rifled barrels only?
Nice darn IDF Panther by the way..great work. I like the IDF Sherman.

bots1141
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 10:32 PM UTC
The Germans would remove the muzzel brakes because the they picked up too much dust. This would make it harder for the gunner to reacquire the target through the dust cloud and it would also give their position away.
tankmodeler
#417
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Monday, August 14, 2017 - 01:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Wouldn`t the 105 mm gun overstress the turret? Adding some ERA blocks and FN MAG`s? Cool idea anyway.


Possibly, but the Sherman went from a medium velocity 75 to a braked 105 and didn't fundamentally change the turret structure.

The key is energy management as opposed to just total energy absorbed.

A longer or more gentle recoil stroke can allow a given turret to absorb significantly more energy without problems. The Sherman got new trunnions, but, from what I've read, had no significant modifications to the turret shell or the turret bearing (apart form the extension that pushed the trunnions further forward). A muzzle brake can reduce recoil by 15% or more, which is significant.

Paul
tankmodeler
#417
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Monday, August 14, 2017 - 01:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

muzzle break.



Muzzle, brake.

Sorry, pet peeve.

They reduce the recoil velocity of the tube so they are a brake.


Quoted Text

I read muzzle breaks were used for keeping your target inline during sustained fire


No, no effect on tube alignment on single or sustained fire, whatever that might be for a manually loaded artillery piece.


Quoted Text

recoil management


Primary reason for a brake


Quoted Text

flash suppression


Incidental and non consistent side effect


Quoted Text

what about increasing shot velocity?


No effect on velocity whatsoever. How were you thinking that might happen?

Brakes can and did have an effect on the discarding of the sabot in APDS rounds and it's the primary reason they are not used today on tanks. Anything that perturbs the separation of the sabot as the projectile leaves the barrel has enough of an effect on the projectile to seriously degrade accuracy at 2, 3 or even 5 kilometers.

As was mentioned above, brakes can (not always) increase the amount of dust kicked up and that can give away positions, increase the obscuration of the target and direct the dangerous blast towards friendly unarmoured forces nearby.


Quoted Text

Were they used on rifled barrels only?


I believe so. I can't think of any smoothbores with a brake. Smoothbores are relatively recent and none of the current MBTs use a brake for the APDS reasons above.

HTH

Paul
m4sherman
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Arizona, United States
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Posted: Monday, August 14, 2017 - 05:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I guess you should go with a 90mm but the 105mm was already in my stash.



I think the Panther turret could handle the 105mm. The 75mm was a heavy weapon with a very strong recoil. The same steps taken to put the 105 in the 76mm M4 turret could be used, and it probably would be easier.