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Armor/AFV: Canadian Armor
Discuss all types of Canadian Armor of all eras.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Canadian Shermans
Folgore
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Canada
Joined: May 31, 2002
KitMaker: 1,109 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 07:04 AM UTC
I have finally got everything I need to begin building my M4A4 (using Dragon's Firefly), except for some good references, but I've found some pictures on the internet. Can't wait to see the pictures of your M4A4, Greg.
My first question now deals with the above post. What exactly is the radio and turret bustle?
Next, I would like to know the best way of cutting that part out of the bottom of the tank as is shown in Canaday's website. I need to keep the piece I cut out in good condition so that it can be placed back in after the surgery.
I have Tank Workshop's M34 mantlet and am just not sure what pieces to use. For my Canadian Sherman should I use the one with the "lips" on either side of the gun? Don't know a better way to describe it.
Also, for the box attached to the back of the turret. The Dragon Firefly appears to have an extended box, whereas a picture I have shows the Sherman with a shorter one. Any ideas here?
That's all the questions I've got right now.

Thanks,

Nic
Dubanka
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Alabama, United States
Joined: June 29, 2002
KitMaker: 152 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 08:36 AM UTC
I know that this is a little late for you, but this may help some in the future.
I have access to all of the vehicles in the resto shop of the Patton museum. They have a Canadian Grizzly (M4A1) in there and I'll get lots of pics.
I'll be sending them to Kencelot, and he'll host them, but I want to fill a whole CD with every vehicle and piece they have......be patient

John
Greg
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Oregon, United States
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 04:28 AM UTC
Very cool, John...looking ofrward to seeing those photos.

Nic asked about "what is the bustle?" The bustle is that sort of squarish portion at the rear of the turret, where the almost circular contour gives way to straight sides and a straight rear. This bustle has a bottom that is raised above the round contour of the turret that matches the turret ring in the hull. The radio set lives in the bustleTwo different types of Sherman turret bustle can be seen, a low bustle with a steep drop-off tfrom the height of the turret top and a high-bustle with a much less pronounced drop. The latter turret was used for the howitzer tanks.

The Fireflies had an additional armored box (made of 2" armor plate) welded to the back of the factory turret butsle, and the wall of the original bustle cut away. The new box held the radio. The reason this was done was to accommodate the needs of the big 17pdr. gun. The recoil was very long, and would have possibly hit a radio in the original bustle, so moving the radio to a new box welded on the back gave the gun room to move. So, an ordinary Sherman V would have an ordinary turret but a Firefly Ic, Ic Hybrid, or Vc would have the additional armored box. Also, Canadian Shermans sometimes had a sheet metal stowage box of similar dimension (to the radio box on the Firefly) added to the back of BOTH regular and Firefly variants. One of my Fireflies will be done this way, as it makes for a very long and interesting turret contour.

As for pictures of the M4A4, I sent some to Jim yesterday and as he gets sorted out in California he'll add them to the gallery, I'm sure.
Greg
Doc
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United States
Joined: June 05, 2002
KitMaker: 43 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 08:08 AM UTC
Check out the DML kit #6035. This is a M4A4, a common Commonwealth tank.
Folgore
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Canada
Joined: May 31, 2002
KitMaker: 1,109 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 11:56 AM UTC
Doc--In previous posts we discussed DML6035. Apparently the suspension is not accurate. I decided I would rather change the mantlet and modify the turret than fiddle around with the suspension. Thanks for the pointer anyway.

Greg--The picture I have of a tank in Ortona does not show the stowage box, so I will leave it off and fill in the gaps. It appears that I should sand it flush with the round thing on the left side of turret bustle, is this correct? I think Canaday's site describes it, so I'll take another look. The picture also shows the tank with no stowage cluttering the top of the hull, but there are some very large bundles or something attached to the rear. Can't see the front. Any ideas on what those bundles would be and how they would be aheld on to the tank? Check your Ortona book. Maybe it has the same picture I'm looking at here (in Maple Leaf Against the Axis).

Nic
Greg
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Oregon, United States
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 10:39 PM UTC
Yeah, Nic, Mike Canaday's site has all the corrections. The contour should be pretty close to flush with the round base for the antenna mount that you mention. I'll have to look about stowage. Some stuff was heavy enough to just set on the deck; everything else would probably be secured with straps and roped to whatever is handy like light guards and tool brackets. Buncles would be any of the folowing: Tarp (think REALLY BIG car cover #:-) ), camo net, duffel and laundry bags, etc. As for the front, could be lots of stuff: spare tracks were common, as were ammo boxes--usually secured with a blank or plate across teh transmission housing. Also an extra roadwheel or two on posts welded to the plate and secured with a nut threaded on the end of the post. Any of that stuff is perfectly fine for a tank in action.

Greg
TUGA
#034
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Setubal, Portugal
Joined: April 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,704 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 03:41 PM UTC
Hi Nic,

Perhaps this interest to you.

I've find a post by Don Dingwall about Camouflaged Sherman V's at Ortona ?

HTH