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Another New Paint Line
Vicious
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Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 02:19 AM UTC
There is also the Mission Model Paints that is produced in the USA ... i love it, personally i do not like to have 10 paints of 10 different brands so stick on those 2 or 3 that i like, life colors, humbrol and MMP
Scarred
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Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 12:06 PM UTC
One thing you also need to remember is competition spawns innovation. Back in the early 90's while in Korea I tried Tamiya so called acrylics. peeled if the weather wasn't right, didn't brush well, a pain to clean up. Wasn't impressed and that put me off acrylics for decades. I figured enamels would rule the world I only needed testors and pactra. I did have a few bottles Polly Scale acrylics for weathering but that's it. Now even testors has acrylics.
Merlin
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Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 - 02:29 AM UTC
Hi Patrick

I also had a really bad experience with the early Tamiya acrylics (the infamous "crazy paving" effect in my case) and, like you, it made me wary for years. I do use them a lot now, though, thinned with cellulose thinners for extra "bite".

It's been very interesting reading the various points of view put forward. I must admit I don't have a full enough understanding of the economics of the paint market to venture an opinion on the central question beyond what's already been noted.

I will say that, for me, judging any paint is a combination of usability, accuracy and availability. Usability is very subjective - I struggle with some paints that I know other people swear by, and vice versa - and, of course, some paints work better for spraying than brushing (and vice versa again).

Unlike some people here, I mix and match paints quite freely in builds. I'll probably use at least four to six brands in any build, with a combination lacquers and acrylics.

I'm the first to admit that I'm not a "scientific" modeller - I try all and any thinners to find what works for me and I seldom, if ever, use paint manufacturers' own brands. My method is a classic (or notorious, depending on your viewpoint) "suck it and see" approach - or, perhaps more accurately, "sniff it (carefully!) and see" to judge what might work. Incidentally, that's also a good ball-park way to identify possibly re-branded paints, because many have a distinctive smell.

Which, I guess, is all just a long winded way of saying "Go with what's good for you". If you prefer to stick with established brands and methods, that's fine - and if you like to try every new brand and type of paint available, that's equally OK. As with everything in modelling, there are no real rights and wrongs - just what works for you personally.

And, of course, I'll add; if you find a new type of paint that you think is amazing (or dreadful!) - please do a Review for us!

All the best

Rowan
kevinekstrom
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Posted: Friday, December 08, 2017 - 10:14 AM UTC
OK, this is my first post under my real name. My old account was not usable and I didn't know how to fix the problem so i re-registered. Old account was spiralcity.

As far as the paints and new lines are concerned, i really do not see a problem. It gives the modelers a variety to sample from, which I think is great. I would hate to see one kit manufacturer and that was it. I want variety.
Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, December 08, 2017 - 08:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

OK, this is my first post under my real name. My old account was not usable and I didn't know how to fix the problem so i re-registered. Old account was spiralcity.

As far as the paints and new lines are concerned, i really do not see a problem. It gives the modelers a variety to sample from, which I think is great. I would hate to see one kit manufacturer and that was it. I want variety.



Kevin,
There is a point of diminishing returns, and once a retailer reaches it, more of the same isn't the direction they will go.

My point has been from the start of this thread that we already have more then enough nitch paint companies for just about every era, country, and type of aircraft they might have flown.

For major retailers both space and profit margins will be the final factors in carrying any new lines of paint, or eliminating the slower lines for new lines. Also, some of these companies are very small, nearly home cottage types, that just can't supply vendors like Sprue Brother & Scalhobbyist.com. The paint pie is only so big, so the more lines, the less the slice size is for everyone, and once you reach that point of diminishing returns, there is little interest in another new line of paint unless it's a nitch faction such as metalizers, or weathering washes and pigments.

Joel
chrism
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Posted: Friday, December 08, 2017 - 09:24 PM UTC
Getting back to Joel's point. I think with everything else, modelers will be buying products online. The days of going to your LHS are sadly dwindling. However the good news is that there are places that carry the products. For example, Micro-Mark is carrying Tamiya and Mission Models paint lines as well as some Vallejo paints as well.
I do like the way some paint makers are packaging their paints in sets such as Vallejo and Hataka are doing. Here in the US, Hobby Lobby is starting to carry some of the Vallejo sets and if one uses the 40% discount, they can save some money.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Friday, December 08, 2017 - 09:55 PM UTC
Has anyone ever looked at the market for house paint or spray paint? How about craft paints? The number of competing lines is bewildering and many offer products that are identical. We have yet to reach market saturation with hobby paints considering how the last few new lines are very specific in color selection and formulation. Squeeze bottle acrylics have saturated the market, now we are getting sprayable acrylic and finally a line of lacquer to replace the long gone Floquil.

There is enough room as each of the lines are complimenting each other or creating a new market or filling a hole. If one fails or is bought out, that is the free market. Testors gobbled up my favorite line and I'm still having trouble finding a nice brushable acrylic in a jar.

And just what did Humbrol do to its formula? It dries in the tin. I have Humbrol 20 years old that is still good but recent purchases dry up in six months. And it's so thick. I feel like I could decant it into a huge bottle and thin it down.
Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, December 08, 2017 - 10:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Has anyone ever looked at the market for house paint or spray paint? How about craft paints? The number of competing lines is bewildering and many offer products that are identical. We have yet to reach market saturation with hobby paints considering how the last few new lines are very specific in color selection and formulation. Squeeze bottle acrylics have saturated the market, now we are getting sprayable acrylic and finally a line of lacquer to replace the long gone Floquil.

There is enough room as each of the lines are complimenting each other or creating a new market or filling a hole. If one fails or is bought out, that is the free market. Testors gobbled up my favorite line and I'm still having trouble finding a nice brushable acrylic in a jar.

And just what did Humbrol do to its formula? It dries in the tin. I have Humbrol 20 years old that is still good but recent purchases dry up in six months. And it's so thick. I feel like I could decant it into a huge bottle and thin it down.



Stephen,
I've been 100% totally against pre-thinned paints from day one. What a rip off. They're already making huge profit margins, and now by selling you paint in a bottle that it pre thinned, you get half the paint for the same price, and they practically double their Gross Profit per bottle. How hard is it to thin paint that one would opt for pre thinned paint if given the option?

Unfortunately, I don't share your assumption that there is enough space for more paint companies. With the few times I've asked Sprue Brothers about carrying a new line of paint, they keep on telling me that they carry more then enough lines in all the mediums. Some paint lines like Mr. Color or other over seas Lacquer based paints are very difficult to bring into the United States even if they wanted to. So if you look at their paint lines, lacquer really isn't available from them.

I do use MRP lacquer based paints for interiors as when I saw that they carried Salmon I just had to try them. So I bought every color of USA and British WWII colors they had. Their paints are pre-thinned so once again I'm getting half a bottle of paint for what is in reality twice the price for same number of ounces of non-thinned paints.

Joel

Vicious
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Posted: Saturday, December 09, 2017 - 04:15 AM UTC
Honestly I do not see the problem, the day that there really will be too many producers will start the natural selection, it seems to me that most of those who "complain" is not because the producers are too many but because some producers steal shelf space to their favorite manufacturer.

In addition, the fact that with the laws more and more restrictive in the importation of certain substances automatically create market niches for small producers, especially enamel and laquer in different parts of the world.

Then on the fact pre-thinned or not it's just a personal choice, I prefer not pre-thinned but it's just a choice not a rip-off, a choice of comfort and less waste of time that many do...i like MMP because is the best of both worlds...for me...is not pre-thinned but they find a way to make the thinning procedure faster and less a "Guessing job".
Joel_W
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Posted: Saturday, December 09, 2017 - 08:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Honestly I do not see the problem, the day that there really will be too many producers will start the natural selection, it seems to me that most of those who "complain" is not because the producers are too many but because some producers steal shelf space to their favorite manufacturer.

In addition, the fact that with the laws more and more restrictive in the importation of certain substances automatically create market niches for small producers, especially enamel and laquer in different parts of the world.

Then on the fact pre-thinned or not it's just a personal choice, I prefer not pre-thinned but it's just a choice not a rip-off, a choice of comfort and less waste of time that many do...i like MMP because is the best of both worlds...for me...is not pre-thinned but they find a way to make the thinning procedure faster and less a "Guessing job".



The only real problems that I keep on referring to is that I don't like having to search out some off beat company to order a few bottles of paint, even Kahan paints only ship direct. the shipping is often as much if not more then the few bottles of paint I need. Smaller retail companies seem to have a greater propensity of out of stocks, and longer times between reorders as they have to meet a min order, and I would assume that most have to pay when the order is placed, so cash flow becomes an issue. And as I've said on numerous times, I don't want pre-thinned paints, which is half a full bottle no matter how you look at it.

Joel
Scarred
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Posted: Saturday, December 09, 2017 - 08:25 AM UTC
Let me ask you this: why do we have so many different types of model cement? All it does is melt the plastic to join two pieces together so why do we need all those choices? And look at CA's, dozens of brands and new brands keep popping up. Look at it this way, how many paint manufacturers are now gone? Polly Scale, Floquil, Pactra, bought out and killed off to stifle competition. That left us with Testors which, in my opinion, has gone down hill in quality the past several years. Yes the advent of the internet is killing the LHS but for modelers it opened up access to other products that are superior, different and gives us more choices that you won't see at a LHS that carries only 2 or 3 lines of paint. I never saw Gunze paint at my LHS but bought it online until it became difficult to get so I went to Tamiya while still using Testors. And I've been reading that Testors may be dropping it's military paints. If so then whats to fill that void? It's all about choice, why do we have so many colas to choose from when in your world we would only need one or two? Why do we have so many choices of beer? I've tried a lot of them and settled on a few that I really like and my brother has his favorites and they are not my brands which makes it inconvenient when I have to take my brand to his house. Now that I've gone to strictly acrylics I like having a choice, I've been trying different brands deciding what I like and I'm sure I will settle on a few preferred choices and I'm sure those choices will change as paints change. And pre mixed paint? Now you don't have to use their thinner so the costs offset each other. And why do we have pigment powders? They are unneeded as you can do the same with ground up chalk? It's because someone is thinking, trying things and innovating. And so he puts out his product and it deserves a chance to succeed for fail. And it gives modelers a choice of using ground up chalk or a ready mixed powder. If it's a hit than kudos for the guy who came up with it. If it fails, at least he tried and hopefully he won't give up. Choice drives an economy. And if someone comes up with a better product how would we know if they didn't try for their piece of the pie?

And remember this: NOBODY is making you use the new brands, that is strictly your choice. If you are having problems finding your paint brand, talk to a supplier/online shop and see if they can help. I've actually was referred to another shop while looking for parts. If a shop gets requests they will tend to start carrying a product, I've seen it happen. They need to know what their customers want and the only way they know is you have to talk to them.
Joel_W
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Posted: Saturday, December 09, 2017 - 09:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Let me ask you this: why do we have so many different types of model cement? All it does is melt the plastic to join two pieces together so why do we need all those choices? And look at CA's, dozens of brands and new brands keep popping up. Look at it this way, how many paint manufacturers are now gone? Polly Scale, Floquil, Pactra, bought out and killed off to stifle competition. That left us with Testors which, in my opinion, has gone down hill in quality the past several years. Yes the advent of the internet is killing the LHS but for modelers it opened up access to other products that are superior, different and gives us more choices that you won't see at a LHS that carries only 2 or 3 lines of paint. I never saw Gunze paint at my LHS but bought it online until it became difficult to get so I went to Tamiya while still using Testors. And I've been reading that Testors may be dropping it's military paints. If so then whats to fill that void? It's all about choice, why do we have so many colas to choose from when in your world we would only need one or two? Why do we have so many choices of beer? I've tried a lot of them and settled on a few that I really like and my brother has his favorites and they are not my brands which makes it inconvenient when I have to take my brand to his house. Now that I've gone to strictly acrylics I like having a choice, I've been trying different brands deciding what I like and I'm sure I will settle on a few preferred choices and I'm sure those choices will change as paints change. And pre mixed paint? Now you don't have to use their thinner so the costs offset each other. And why do we have pigment powders? They are unneeded as you can do the same with ground up chalk? It's because someone is thinking, trying things and innovating. And so he puts out his product and it deserves a chance to succeed for fail. And it gives modelers a choice of using ground up chalk or a ready mixed powder. If it's a hit than kudos for the guy who came up with it. If it fails, at least he tried and hopefully he won't give up. Choice drives an economy. And if someone comes up with a better product how would we know if they didn't try for their piece of the pie?

And remember this: NOBODY is making you use the new brands, that is strictly your choice. If you are having problems finding your paint brand, talk to a supplier/online shop and see if they can help. I've actually was referred to another shop while looking for parts. If a shop gets requests they will tend to start carrying a product, I've seen it happen. They need to know what their customers want and the only way they know is you have to talk to them.



Patrick,
I've answered your questions and replied to your assertions several times during this thread.

Testors decision to buy it's competition and close their doors happens in every industry. Enamels aren't the popular choice right now, they had the opportunity to buy a competitor that was struggling for market share and most likely loosing money. In the 50s-60 there must have been close to a dozen auto corps based out of Detroit, all but 3 have been boughtout and eventually had their doors shuttered for good. Since you live in the United States let me give you the latest consolidation. Rite Aid was just bought by Walgreens. The plan is to close any store that is within 1 mile of an existing store. In populated areas that amounts to a good percentage of the stores. In less then 5 miles of my house I have two Rite Aids, 2 Walgreens, and 2 CVSs, loosing one or two drug stores means nothing to anyone living in my area.

My point is over saturation in all those cases. End result is that only the strong survive.

As for more choices, come on, we have way more then enough lines of paint in Arcylics (all types), Lacquers, & Enamels. Colors to today are done by a spectrograph/computer software. Pigments and bases are the persons choice.

As for you point about cements, you can't count any non specific styrene cement, as they weren't targeted at plastic model makers. Certainly CCA glues weren't. As far as liquid model glues are concerned, most large paint lines have a glue or glues as part of their package. In all cases that I know of the glue is not formulated by them and made for them. Retailers like the total package concept because all those products are designed to fit in their floor rack.

You are certainly correct that no one if forcing me to use another line of paint unless my current lines of choice aren't available.

When and if either Sprue Brothers and or Scalehobbyist.com carries some of them, I'll stick to their carried lines of paint for all the reasons I've previously said.

Joel


kevinekstrom
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 02:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text







My point is over saturation in all those cases. End result is that only the strong survive.






That's the beauty of the free market. There's over saturation in just about every retail market on the planet, but everyone gets a chance to play. I wouldn't want it any other way, but that's me.
27-1025
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 07:43 AM UTC
I must confess to being a gullible and wanting to try each new paint line. Usually I'm disappointed when trying to compare them against Tamiya when airbrushing. Getting ready to try the new AK line and see how they work.
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
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Posted: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 11:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I must confess to being a gullible and wanting to try each new paint line. Usually I'm disappointed when trying to compare them against Tamiya when airbrushing. Getting ready to try the new AK line and see how they work.



Chris,
Please post your results as I'm curious myself about the AK paints.

Joel
rochaped
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Lisboa, Portugal
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 12:28 AM UTC
Joel,

Been reading your thread and came to the conclusion that almost everyone has a very personal view regarding the paint market.
From my perspective, its a good thing what we modellers have today, meaning, several options out there are bound to please every taste. The downside of this is, as you point, poor availability in local shops. But then again, Ive always preferred Gunze and never found it easily near me. More often than not, I bought them during work travels abroad since I always looked for model shops anywhere I go.
Tamiya, Vallejo and AK are the easiest to find here in Portugal. Right now Im leaning more to MRP paints and have to buy them online, which obviously increases (around 20 % more) the final price.

Cheers
Pedro
27-1025
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Posted: Friday, December 15, 2017 - 06:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I must confess to being a gullible and wanting to try each new paint line. Usually I'm disappointed when trying to compare them against Tamiya when airbrushing. Getting ready to try the new AK line and see how they work.



Chris,
Please post your results as I'm curious myself about the AK paints.


Joel



Will do!! Last Cavalry carries the line now and getting ready to send off a small order to include their thinner. I hate the thought of another bottle of thinner

Going to try their OD set to start with.
trucolorpaint
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 11:58 AM UTC
Tru-Color Paint is not a new company as some have pointed out. We have been in business for over 12 years manufacturing the largest variety of model railroad paint on the market - over 400 colors in 3 segments - sprayable glossy, matte sprayable and flat, brushable lines. About 3 years ago we expanded the line to include over 100 automobile paint colors divided between glossy colors and metallic/pearlescent colors which would adhere to both R/C bodies and injected modeled plastic bodies.

Then in early 2017 we decided to expand the line once more into the military market when we saw that Testors was closing down most of their product lines and hearing complaints about the quality of some of the products currently on the market. To this end we have added some 100 colors in armor, aircraft and naval ships to the product line. Most of these colors were for U.S. military models and we have asked for input into what we should add next on many forums.

Throughout the balance of 2018 and into 2019 we will be adding colors for WWII RAF, German WWII armor, Israeli armor and aircraft and German WWII ships. Unlike other manufacturers we DO NOT discontinue a color, even if is a slow mover as we can manufacture small batches in our modern plant in Phoenix, AZ.

And yes, we manufacture EVERY color in our plant in Phoenix and ship to 8 distributors in the U.S. and 1 in Canada. We know our paint products are carried in about 300 hobby shops across the U.S. Obviously NO ONE carries every color for every paint category we make, but they will special order any color from us or their favorite distributor.

We are working with Squadron to have them carry our military line shortly.

Tru-Color Paint is a solvent based acrylic paint. We use an acrylic polymer to bind our finely ground pigments to the model so that it is tough and flexible when handling the model. We guarantee our paint will NEVER go bad in the bottle, being a single component polymer system and even if some of the solvents should evaporate after opening, the paint can be reconstituted with addition of our Thinner, TCP-015, and be used without any ill effect.

If there are any questions regarding Tru-Color Paint, please email us or respond to this thread.

Martin Cohen, PhD
Tru-Color Paint
P.O. Box 74524
Phoenix, AZ 85087-4524

714-488-9779
email: tru.colorpaint1@yahoo.com
website: trucolorpaint.com
trucolorpaint
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Posted: Friday, March 02, 2018 - 11:35 AM UTC
One more item that we wish to bring to your attention. ANY company that does not expand their product line with new items (whether it be a color or 2 or a whole new category of paint products as in our case) will become stagnant and not grow.

Tru-Color Paint does not intend to be stagnant - we will add some new colors EVERY month in 1 or more segments of our product lines throughout 2018 and 2019. We are also working on adding military paint sets as well as diorama and generic sets later this year !

Not developing new products is death to some companies. Why do you think there is always new cell phones, computer programs, cars and yes even plastic models for the consumer to purchase ? Only way companies stay in the consumer's view is by having new products.

That is one of the reasons Tru-Color Paint added the military paint lines. Another is we had the capacity and expertise so why not ? We also knew we had a superior product to some of the paints in the market and that we complied with every Federal law for labeling our products (as is not the case for several other companies' product we viewed at the local hobby shop).

By the end of 2018 we will have over 300 colors in the military and detailing lines for the modeler and we will continue to expand that into 2019.

Let us know your thoughts on the subject.

Martin Cohen, PhD
Tru-Color Paint
P.O. Box 74524
Phoenix, AZ 85087-4524

714-488-9779