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World War II: Great Britain
Aircraft of Great Britain in WWII.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
Advice requested on the Matchbox 1/32Lysander
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 01:47 AM UTC
Re: Self defense weapons:

The Matchbox kit offers two options in weapons for the rear seat defensive position. I know the first to be a single barrel Vickers K. Gaspatch offers an exact replacement for that weapon.

Matchbox also offers the option of a twin machine gun which is belt feed, however while they do include the ammo boxes, no semblance of the feed belts is offered. Can anyone (Richard) help me identify these twin guns?
rdt1953
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 02:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Re: Self defense weapons:

The Matchbox kit offers two options in weapons for the rear seat defensive position. I know the first to be a single barrel Vickers K. Gaspatch offers an exact replacement for that weapon.

Matchbox also offers the option of a twin machine gun which is belt feed, however while they do include the ammo boxes, no semblance of the feed belts is offered. Can anyone (Richard) help me identify these twin guns?



Via Wikipedia : All rear guns .303

Lysander Mk I -0ne pintle mounted Lewis or Vickers K

Mk III- twin Brownings ( .303 so Browning 30 cal )

Mk IIIA - twin Lewis ( again .303 )
I regret that I don't know which Lewis guns these may be or if they were available belt fed- it is my understanding that most Lewis guns had a top mount drum magazine but I may be wrong . If you go the Browning route and if none are available in 1/32 I'm reasonably certain that they are available by several aftermarket makers in resin in 1/35 which is pretty close .

I'm with you on the great looking but historically inaccurate gun makes a nicer model than an accurate blob with a barrel - Richard
rdt1953
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 02:42 AM UTC
Addendum-

Gaspatch offers Browning .303 Mk I/ Mk II in 1/32 on their website and they are stunning
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 03:28 AM UTC
Richard - I knew I could count on you.

I will be placing an order to GasPatch very shortly! (As soon as I decide just what wealth of riches I wish to indulge in.)
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 03:29 AM UTC
Reference photo on port side Lysander cockpit - showing throttle and map case:

165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 03:40 AM UTC
Reference photos; Lysander self defense weapons:

Early Vickers K:


Late Twin Brownings:
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 04:38 AM UTC
I want, I want, I want . . . . . . (in 1/32 ! ! ! ! ! )

165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 04:43 AM UTC
Remember; Always lead your target!


That is another problem I had with the recent Dunkirk movie, the British pilot doesn't start shooting until the Jerry is centered in his sights. By then it's too darn late! The whole idea is for your fire to arrive at the exact same instant the target arrives centered in your sights.


(p.p.s. How's a landlubber supposed to know what the yell a mole is? I've gotten around a bit in my life - I've even walked on a mole - but NEVER have I heard it called that. Made for a BIG question mark throughout the first half of the movie. I thought maybe they were talking about the Frenchman in the British uniform being a mole i.e., a spy.)
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 07:54 AM UTC
Well I've gone through the Gaspatch catalog. I have the choice of either the exactly correct small weapon (Vickers K) or a mash-up of the Browning .303 with a lot of compromises.

The Gaspatch Brownings can be mounted as twins (one can be converted to a right-hand feed.) However the gun mount will have to be scratch built as will the trigger handles and belt feeds. Also none of the barrel heat shields are anywhere near correct for the early aircraft style weapon. Hum . . . . . . .

(I have to admit, I prefer the larger twin gun Browning arrangement to the somewhat anemic looking Vickers K. I know they are both chambered for .303 but hey, double your pleasure, double your fun!)
Scrodes
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 08:16 AM UTC
[quote]Lizzie with her clothes off:

/quote]


Our Lysander (at the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum) suffered an "off field landing" last year - saved only by a BRILLIANT piece of flying after an engine failure.
rdt1953
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 08:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Well I've gone through the Gaspatch catalog. I have the choice of either the exactly correct small weapon (Vickers K) or a mash-up of the Browning .303 with a lot of compromises.

The Gaspatch Brownings can be mounted as twins (one can be converted to a right-hand feed.) However the gun mount will have to be scratch built as will the trigger handles and belt feeds. Also none of the barrel heat shields are anywhere near correct for the early aircraft style weapon. Hum . . . . . . .



IIRC the Browning 50 cal flexible mount from Gaspatch has the handles/triggers - likely easily adapted to the .303 but also costly- judging by what you have done so far it would seem your scratch building skills are up to the task - I am enjoying your blog - keep up the good work ! Richard
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 10:26 PM UTC
MK II .303 Brownings in twin mount:





These two photos property of James D. Julia Auctioneers - published on the internet and used here for discussion purposes only.
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 10:33 PM UTC
Gaspatch offering of .303 Browning with barrel end heat sink and flash hider.



Mount, trigger/handle assemblies and belt feeds would have to be manufactured. Knocking off the flash hidders would be the easiest part.

(Richard would there be a Gaspatch version of the Browning that would work better? Just wanted to make sure this is the weapon you were referring to.)

p.p.s. I am assuming that side mounted lite gray box seen in the above photo mounted on the receiver is some sort of remote firing solenoid??? Easy enough to remove.
rdt1953
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 10:36 PM UTC
Those handles/triggers are definitely different than the twin grip/ toggle trigger arrangement on the .50 cal so looks like a relatively simple scratch project for the Gaspatch.303 Brownings
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 10:53 PM UTC
Note that the firing handles on the tripod mounted twins photo I posted earlier are of a different design - most similar to the twin weapon included in the Matchbox Lysander. I suspect these handles are closer to what was actually used on the Lysander and perhaps easier to model.

Building the belt feeds is the item that troubles me the most of all.
rdt1953
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Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 11:09 PM UTC
I seem to recall one of the aftermarket companies offering gun sets for HK 's 1/32 B 17 . Although for . 50 cal the feed chutes may be adaptable- worth looking into
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 - 01:38 AM UTC
I don't suppose anyone would have photos or info on the fold away support pedestal both these guns were carried on in the Lysander?

I tried using "Smart Enlarge" in my photo editing software to get a better look at the mount under the Vickers K but it did not seem to help much.

165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 - 01:50 AM UTC
Also I suspect the Lysander that was set up for nighttime spy work did not carry a self defense weapon. First of all the missions were at night (hard to spot/shoot someone behind you,) and second of all the rear seat room was needed to hall supplies and personnel.

I read somewhere that on one occasion the Lysander hauled THREE French agents back to England in a single trip. I also read that for night missions the guns were striped out as was the long range radio to make space, improve fuel economy and increase speed.

On the other hand I would guess that a Lysander doing daylight photographic work would need all the self-defense capability it could muster.
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 - 02:04 AM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text

Lizzie with her clothes off:

/quote]


Our Lysander (at the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum) suffered an "off field landing" last year - saved only by a BRILLIANT piece of flying after an engine failure.



Matt, sorry to hear about the near crash but luckily you guys still have the plane to work on and re-restore.

Congrats!
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 - 05:07 AM UTC
Interesting image: Lysander on photographic mission - note the aircraft is armed with twin belt fed Brownings.


IWM Photo - Used with permission
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 - 06:31 AM UTC


I know this photo shows a museum preserved Lysander. It utilizes the standard Lysander fuel tank without having the upper auxiliary gas tank that would otherwise fill the wing spar support tower. So in lieu of the aux gas tank we get a navigation chart table. The Matchbox model gives us the option for showing a chart table. My question is this: what is that device sitting on the map? I have been a surveyor but never a navigator so I have never seen anything like this.

(Note the white fuel filler pipe on the left just ahead of the map table.)
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 - 12:34 PM UTC
I believe the instrument in the above photo is an Astrocompass. Used for navigation at night using the position of certain stars.

Very appropriate to be displayed in conjunction with the Lysander.
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 - 08:09 PM UTC
Found on line from MASTER Models: MK II British Browning .303 brass barrels in 1/32nd scale -



Link to website:

http://master-model.pl/category/air-master-132?page=4
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 - 10:11 PM UTC
More internal detail photos on the naked Lysander:




(Photos property of The Aircraft Restoration Co. - Used here for reference and discussion only.}

I might have to add that oil tank just ahead of the control panel.
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 - 10:25 PM UTC
Beautiful!


(Photo Credit: Aircraft Photos - Used here for discussion and research only.)