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Armor/AFV: Canadian Armor
Discuss all types of Canadian Armor of all eras.
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RCD M4A3E8, Korea
griffontech
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Canada
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 06:43 AM UTC
Hello all,

I'm starting a build on a M4A3E8 that would have been used by the Royal Canadian Dragoons in Korea.

Looking for reference pics or info on following topics if any body has some:
1: Close up pics of the .50 cal mount that was moved forward of commanders hatch on some tanks. Was the rear mount simply unbolted and welded to new position?
2: Pics of the rear turret markings for a "Lazy D" symbol that was used by the unit. Can't find this anywhere.
3: Any close details pics of how frames were attached to sponsons to hold spare jerry cans, etc. I think most E8 units they may have use the bolts for the angled sponson supports. Or were they welded? Close detailed pics hard to come by.

Thanks
m4sherman
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Arizona, United States
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 08:04 AM UTC
I had a look online and ended up more curious than when I started. If I remember correctly Canadian units were loaned M4A3's to standardize the armor units.

Jerry can mounting could use the bolts for the spare tracks common on the 'A3's. That would be easier than using the bolts to the fenders, as the spare track bolts were higher up on the hull. For the 50 cal move to the turret front, there is one picture that shows the mount, but as you say is unclear. However it seems to be on a circular fitting to which the mount was attached.

With luck someone will have the info you need, and cure my curiosity!
griffontech
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Canada
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 08:59 AM UTC
Thanks for the info. I was curious too when I read about the Canadian E8's. I had originally thought we went over with our M4's.

I never knew they were loaned from US stock in Korea, then passed from one Canadian armoured unit to another as they rotated in and out of country.
I never considered the spare track mounting points, so thank you. I can only see one good picture of the .50 on the front, but the pic is taken from the ground, so no part of the turret top is seen.

Since I only found one good pic of a tank named Dalmatian (D, or dog squadron tank manned by the RCD's) I'm going to make a generic tank named Doberman, Daschund, or something like that.

I am also looking to fabricate a gun mantlet cover as I think most of the E8's had them around the time.


Link to some ref photos, including Dalmatian:
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/Canada/M4A3-76w-HVSS-Sherman-the-korean-war-easy-8-tank/


GeraldOwens
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Florida, United States
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 10:41 AM UTC
Don't forget the rebuilt engine deck. The original dead-lift hinges on the engine deck doors were replaced after World War Two with torsion bars, which made the life of the mechanics a lot easier. You can see them on most prerserved Easy 8's today.
These are present on the new Tamiya Korean War version. Not sure if any other makers included them on their Korea kits.
And of course, the phone box on the rear and the medical kit on the left hull side were fairly standard by 1950.
m4sherman
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Arizona, United States
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 10:51 AM UTC
I had a look at the link. Dalmatian has a large angle iron structure on the right side. A little unusual. The 50 mount is a bit forward of the gunners periscope so is on, or close too, the front slope of the turret.

Did you see this:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/moderncanadianvehicles/lord-strathcona-s-horse-royal-canadians-m4a3e8-bac-t2710.html

I think he put the mount to the 50 a bit far back, and a bit too far to the left.

DEF makes a nice mantlet cover.
LeoCmdr
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 02:28 PM UTC
If you want the "must have" book on Canadian vehicles in Korea pick up this book. You will never have to post a question again.

https://servicepub.com/product/canadian-vehicles-in-korea

The lazy D was on the turret rear to the left of the .50 Cal fitting on the turret rear.

The .50 Cal mount was simply repositioned forward. This was done when the tanks were crewed by B Sqn, LdSH(RC) but not until 6 months into their tour. From what I can tell the mount was simply repositioned and welded on...as the locations vary a bit from tank to tank in pics.

The tanks used by D Squadron were previously crewed by A Sqn, LdSH(RC)but once again it appears the racks started with the B Sqn, LdSH(RC) crews. The racks vary in size and complexity and detail pics I've seen show the brackets welded to the hull sides. Some tanks never had custom racks at all on only multiple jerry can racks.

I've seen one pic of Dacshund...it sports a long custom stowage rack on the left side of the hull running from the end of the hull to third road wheel in from the idler. There is a first aid kit mounted on the hull side in front of the rack and then a spare road wheel...like seen on Dalmatian. There are no spare tracks welded to the turret on the left side.

Good luck with your project!

griffontech
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Canada
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 03:13 PM UTC
Gerald. Thanks for the info. So, have to admit my ignorance on all things Sherman. This is my 1st Sherman build. GASP!
I actually picked up a Tamiya European Theatre E8 as it was the only one in my LHS and this purchase was a strictly impulse buy.
I only decided to build a Canadian Korean war version after I found out we used them there. I will have to make some adjustments to fit the period, but nothing that is out of the ordinary for a build:

- I have pics of tanks with the 1st aid kit not installed. May scratch build it or not.

- I still have to find a decent pic of the rear of a Canadian tank for the crew phone box. I'm sure it was installed and there are ref photos for it on US vehicles, so that should be easy.

-Mantlet cover is an easy scratch. Won't go after market for one.

- The Jerry holder will be an easy mod. I've seen different versions on vehicles in the same platoon, so no problem considering I'm building a "generic" tank. That one on Dalmatian looks welded and not bolted to the vehicle as discussed above.

-Wasn't aware of the engine deck hinge change....ignorance again. I've seen photos of it now, and while it will be fiddly to make the hinge, should not be a problem.

-Since the .50 movement was a field mod, I'll fudge the placement for best use by the TC.

-And now to the biggest issue. As Sherman experts smarter than me know, and which I just Googled and found out, is that the Korean War E8's used a different track than the WWII ones. Korean War = T80 or T84. WWII = T66. I found one reference stating the T66 had "mostly" been phased out by Korea. My model has the T66

So, my question to you all (keeping in mind I'm not a rivet counter and this is a generic vehicle) is do you think any T66 tracks would have survived to Korea? I can't find a photo documenting it on either Canadian or US vehicles. Since these were loaner vehicles to the Canadians from stock held in country, maybe the US decided to pawn off whatever they had?

I could build a WWII version and get another Korean kit, but I really don't wanna.

Thoughts?
griffontech
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Canada
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 03:20 PM UTC
Jason

Awesome info!! Thanks. I'll try and track down the book.

As you can see from my latest post, I may have jumped the gun on the whole Canadian Korean War thing due to my ignorance and eagerness to build.

Might be able to salvage this if the T66 tracks aren't a huge problem.
m4sherman
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 06:42 PM UTC
Looks like you got some good information. T-66 tracks were phased out rather quickly so would be rare in Korea by this time, but they were still using VVSS bulldozer tanks, so who knows.

I think it would be simpler to make a new 50 cal base out of a piece of metal stock than to grind off and re-weld the base. Welding melts things together, and to grind the part off the turret would create an undercut in the removed part that might damage the holes in the part when re-welded. I've learned this the hard way.
SSGToms
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Connecticut, United States
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 07:15 PM UTC
Hey Dave,

I've got the new Tamiya Korean War M4A3E8, new in the box, when I actually wanted to buy the WWII version. Want to trade kits?
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 08:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I still have to find a decent pic of the rear of a Canadian tank for the crew phone box. I'm sure it was installed and there are ref photos for it on US vehicles, so that should be easy.





H.P.
zapper
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Skåne, Sweden
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Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 - 02:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I still have to find a decent pic of the rear of a Canadian tank for the crew phone box. I'm sure it was installed and there are ref photos for it on US vehicles, so that should be easy.





H.P.



Note that this vehicle does not have the updated hinges for the engine deck. Not all M4A3E8 in Korea had that update.

Another thing that you pretty much need for a Korea build is the later style exhaust shield. It's included in the Tamiya Korea kit but not in the WWII kit. It is possible to build a vehicle that lost its shields althought most seem to have them.

Cheers,
/E
griffontech
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Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 - 07:22 AM UTC
I appreciate the offer, but I started the model. About 80% built right now. Will post pics soon.
griffontech
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Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 - 07:25 AM UTC
Wow. No matter how many rabbit holes you go down on the Web, you manage to miss something. Nice pic of the back of the tank. Thank you!

Good news on the hinges, bad news on the exhaust... grr again.

I'll take a look at some pics and see what I can come up with. I might end up buying a new model...

"Honey! Gotta go shopping!"
berwickj
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Fyn, Denmark
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Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 - 10:35 AM UTC
You don't strictly need the torsion bars on the engine grates. I've seen one or two pics where they have the old configuration. Tamiya's WWII E8 can easily be used as there are also multiple pics of E8s with T66 tracks as well.

edit: found a pic from Korea without the torsion bares:



John
griffontech
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Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 - 01:21 PM UTC
Nice pic! Yet again, haven't seen that one. My only hiccup now is the engine exhaust deflectors. Everything else is easy peasy, but the deflectors may be a pain to build.
panamadan
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Minnesota, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 - 01:57 PM UTC
Do yourself a favor and get a Tasca 'E8-
http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/britain/tasca35023reviewab_1.html

Dan
griffontech
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Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 - 05:39 AM UTC
Ya. I'm seriously considering now. Tasca or Tamiya. Tasca looks real nice, but I will have to go for a long drive to get one.

Looks like I may have some US WWII armour on my shelf soon.
tankmodeler
#417
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 - 05:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I had originally thought we went over with our M4's.


The RCD were sent to Korea initially with M10 17 pdrs (Achilles) but these were swapped out with M4A3s right away and the crews cross-trained in theatre.

Paul
Das_Abteilung
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United Kingdom
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Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 - 06:52 AM UTC
Unless I'm much mistaken the 50 cal pedestal mount introduced with the small loader's hatch was bolted to a pad welded to the hull top. So making a new replica of this pad with tapped bolt holes and welding it to the front turret roof would seem a simple task for a field workshop. No reason to grind off the old one.

I can't see the T66 track in Korea. It was being supplanted, if not replaced, by T80 and T84 even before the end of the war in Europe. I don't know what the problem with it was, but it didn't survive long on the M26 either. Traction ought to have been OK. Maybe the single pin was a weakness.
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
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Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 - 08:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I can't see the T66 track in Korea.



I can (in U.S. Army service at least...)











a last one here (without exhaust deflector BTW...)

H.P.
berwickj
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Fyn, Denmark
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Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 - 10:34 AM UTC
Another couple without armoured exhaust deflectors: (and the first one even has no torsion bars!)






John
zapper
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Skåne, Sweden
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Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 - 10:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I can't see the T66 track in Korea.



I can (in U.S. Army service at least...)











a last one here (without exhaust deflector BTW...)

H.P.



The photos H.P. posted are dated October 1950. That is about as late that I've seen T66 tracks on US tanks. Doesn't exclude the possibility of them beeing used later.
In the book mentioned above about Canadian army vehicles in Korea (great book!) there is one picture of a Canadian Sherman with T66 tracks (and sand shields!). This photo is probably taken right after the Canadians got their vehicles in mid May 1951. That is the only photo I've seen of a Canadian Sherman in Korea with T66 tracks.

Cheers,
/E
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
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Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 - 11:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The photos H.P. posted are dated October 1950.



Except the last one which is dated September 1951...

H.P.
panamadan
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Minnesota, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 - 11:27 AM UTC
great pics!
Dan