login   |    register
Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
How would a captured p1000Ratte be displayed?
DUKWsinarow
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New Jersey, United States
Joined: October 08, 2007
KitMaker: 124 posts
AeroScale: 12 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 - 04:24 PM UTC
I've always been fascinated by the 'paper-tiger' p1000 Ratte &, upon discovering that Modelcollect produced a 1:72 model of this unique piece of equipment, couldn't resist purchasing one.

https://goo.gl/images/PTrd2e

I prefer 1:72 since it is close enough to my 'S'-scale (1:64th scale) trains that the vehicles can often be displayed on the layout, either as memorials, active military vehicles, or as civilianized vehicles (such as a DUKW being employed by firefighters as a water-rescue vehicle).

I'm thinking that I might be able to display the Ratte as a captured war-prize, possibly adjacent to an M2 Stuart, to portray WWII as a 'David vs. Goliath'-esque struggle.

So, how would a p1000 Ratte be displayed, in the United States, in the late '70's, assuming we WOULDN'T treat it as we did the Panzerjager Tiger held at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds during this period...

https://goo.gl/images/1xm3mC

How would a captured tank of this magnitude likely be painted? Would allied markings and/or allied graffiti applied at the time of its capture be allowed to remain on the tank or would it be restored to display German markings?

In addition to a concrete platform, would any structure be constructed to enclose/shelter such a prize (like a pavilion)???

Would it be realistic to include walkways to permit civilians, on guided tours to enter the tank?

I'm thinking that I could put this display adjacent to the track, allowing me to display both models...

Thank you...
TopSmith
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,452 posts
AeroScale: 14 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 - 05:46 PM UTC
Depends on the time frame. Museums are starting to put effort into displaying vehicles in the correct color and patterns. The 50's and 60's not so much. The vehicle would be so heavy and large that it probably would not be moved much from where they originally moved it to. You could paint it the wrong shade of yellow or green, rust it up and add graffiti. Remember to remove some of the parts. If you notice many of the museum vehicles are missing parts. What ever was used for suspension probably has broken over time so it might have settled at a slight angle.
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 5,515 posts
AeroScale: 15 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 - 08:24 PM UTC
I don't think they would allow anyone to enter the tank, just imagine the lawsuits if someone bumped their head.

Adding to Gregs comment about the suspension:
Slightly sunk into the ground or with cracked concrete pads under each track.
/ Robin
Precious_rob
_VISITCOMMUNITY
United States
Joined: March 09, 2009
KitMaker: 206 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 12:10 AM UTC
This makes me curious how they would even go about shipping something that big across the ocean to begin with. We didn't send any of the heavy tanks we had across the Atlantic because the average crane didnt have the lifting capacity to handle them, so though not impossible by any stretch, I wonder if it would have made it here in the first place.


As for display, the stripped down hulk would probably be most accurate for a museum piece in the 70s. I think your best frame of reference would be that Leopold railgun Aberdeen had then. Thats probably the largest non naval piece we captured and brought back (that I can think of,) so I would use that as a base of reference with the weathering and paint condition. I know the Ratte had a few anti-air Flaks on it, those would probably either be missing most likely, or rusted in place and missing alot of parts. And I agree with the previous statements, given how the suspension on the Panthers and Tigers aged, its safe to say that Ratte would have bottomed out at some point by then.
Scarred
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
AeroScale: 24 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 12:33 AM UTC
I don't think it would be displayed. It would probably be tested to destruction, taken apart, analyzed, the hull put on a range and shot and bombed to test weapons until it was just a rusting hulk. It would also make a good candidate for nuke bomb testing as they did it in the 50's. I don't think keeping it as a museum piece would even occur to whoever captured it in the run up to the cold war.
Tortoise
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Queensland, Australia
Joined: December 15, 2016
KitMaker: 3 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 01:06 AM UTC
The great thing about building a model of the Ratte is that it is such a ridiculous beast that you don't have to do anything realistic at all. If you can imagine a world where the Germans built one, you can imagine the Allies built a ship capable of transporting it. Or they tore it down and shipped it in sections. Or they moved it with tractor beams developed after the Roswell crash. Remember - fantasy model, fantasy thinking. So some ideas for displaying it:
- in a victory parade, painted with huge Stars and Stripes, bunting etc, lead by other paper or post-war vehicles
- wherever it was found at the end of the war, crashed into a bridge, valley, town etc, with the ruins still standing but tidied up, signage for tourists, pathways, mown lawns etc.
- on a parade ground with marching bands and reviewing generals
- converted into the launch vehicle for a retro-futuristic space rocket
For any of these, you might want to sell the 'on display' theme with plenty of shiny 1950s (or whenever) civilian vehicles and buildings. Perhaps one of the guns and some ammunition could be mounted as displays next to the Ratte. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!
TopSmith
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,452 posts
AeroScale: 14 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 04:21 AM UTC
To be honest this is such a ridiculous vehicle that there would be no consideration by any country to test and steal the design. If you look at battleship design and see what equipment/materials are needed to operate those guns you will realize that the chassis is only for transporting the turret to some location. A mobile battery. It would be driven from the factory or barged to a location to be driven someplace. There is no rail or road system that could transport it. Realizing the reliability and underpowered drivetrains of the larger tanks of the time I would give it a few miles from where it would be assembled would be its final resting place. I can't imagine the amount of time and materials it would take to build this. It would be created at a shipyard that built warships due to the cranes needed and the skilled workers to fabricate this. It would be far more practical to build more rail guns than this thing.
Biggles2
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,160 posts
AeroScale: 118 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 04:30 AM UTC
Instead of putting the Ratte IN a museum, you could put the museum (a war museum, obviously) IN the Ratte.
ReluctantRenegade
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Wien, Austria
Joined: March 09, 2016
KitMaker: 2,178 posts
AeroScale: 74 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 06:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

So, how would a p1000 Ratte be displayed, in the United States



How would it get there at the first place?
Removed by original poster on 12/30/18 - 19:26:30 (GMT).
DUKWsinarow
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New Jersey, United States
Joined: October 08, 2007
KitMaker: 124 posts
AeroScale: 12 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 07:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

How would it get there at the first place?



Presumably, it would be moved in a manner similar to the U-505, and would therefore need to be near a source of navigable waters (thank you for making me think of this)...




DUKWsinarow
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New Jersey, United States
Joined: October 08, 2007
KitMaker: 124 posts
AeroScale: 12 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 07:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You could paint it the wrong shade of yellow or green, rust it up and add graffiti.



What you said inspired me to think of this; Feature the 'original', time-of-capture graffiti preserved under clear plexiglass, with more recent additions added un the unprotected portions of the hull & atop the plexiglass...
Richard_E
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: January 06, 2003
KitMaker: 36 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 08:00 AM UTC
Could I offer the suggestion of depicting the P1000 quietly rusting away and being taken over by Mother Nature after it was abandoned by its crew following enemy action or after breaking down?
Robbd01
#323
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Arizona, United States
Joined: February 13, 2013
KitMaker: 752 posts
AeroScale: 211 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 09:26 AM UTC
If it was disabled in a reasonable location, hollow it out and turn it into a night club. Call it the Ratte Trappe

Cheers

Biggles2
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,160 posts
AeroScale: 118 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 12:12 PM UTC
Or a condo development!
Scarred
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
AeroScale: 24 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 05:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

How would it get there at the first place?



Presumably, it would be moved in a manner similar to the U-505, and would therefore need to be near a source of navigable waters (thank you for making me think of this)...





They've been launching ships like that up here for decades, they also pull out for repairs the same way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNwfNPABDuE&feature=youtu.be
Bravo1102
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,737 posts
AeroScale: 59 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 09:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Instead of putting the Ratte IN a museum, you could put the museum (a war museum, obviously) IN the Ratte.


This would be great. Put doors and benches around it with the "Museum of the Second World War" logo over the doors. Put in appropriate fire exits and maybe an extension for a special gallery.

The tracks could be present with a concrete foundation behind them to ground the building. A couple of the flak guns could be up top along with a few Allied guns to reinforce the museum identity.

I'm doing an armor museum in HO (1/87) because of availability of civilians and other park accessories. I've done some statuary and most of the US vehicles. I had to drastically cut it down because it got too big so I am only using what I ve already started.
Robbd01
#323
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Arizona, United States
Joined: February 13, 2013
KitMaker: 752 posts
AeroScale: 211 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 05:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If it was disabled in a reasonable location, hollow it out and turn it into a night club. Call it the Ratte Trappe

Cheers




It's worked before. If you play Neverwinter Online(D&D), the gnomes converted a dead purple worm into a the Barrow Dawn Inn. Hey not any more fantasy then this thread



Ya Ya it's =


Cheers

Das_Abteilung
_VISITCOMMUNITY
United Kingdom
Joined: August 31, 2010
KitMaker: 365 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 06:50 AM UTC
Bearing in mind the afore-mentioned impracticality of moving it anywhere and the continuing interest in coastal artillery post-war, it seems possible that it might just have been emplaced somewhere as a ready-made static battery. Then later fallen into disuse until some enterprising individuals purchased it, restored it and opened it as a museum.
U-mark
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Michigan, United States
Joined: January 04, 2017
KitMaker: 118 posts
AeroScale: 10 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 07:17 AM UTC
It could have been displayed next to the captured Dora railway gun also on display. You could run a zip line between the two.
armouredcharmer
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 09, 2009
KitMaker: 670 posts
AeroScale: 175 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 11:13 PM UTC
Despite what the detractors say I think its a good idea. It would definitely be the centrepiece of any museum, if I was doing it I would put a few walkways around it and park a few relevant vehicles next to it for scale.
Hang what some others say, its a what-if not a technical exercise, if someone wanted it there they would find a way to move it!.
DUKWsinarow
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New Jersey, United States
Joined: October 08, 2007
KitMaker: 124 posts
AeroScale: 12 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 06, 2019 - 08:03 PM UTC
Would; 'Der Beulenpest' ('The Bubonic Plague') be an 'accurate' name for the Germans to give one of their own tanks???

I was thinking about how I would paint the p1000 'Ratte' & came up with the idea that, since the deadliest thing a 'ratte' ('rat') can be is a plague-carrier, the commander might name his p1000 Ratte after the deadliest of all rat-born plagues, 'Der Beulenpest'.

Perhaps this tank's german symbol could be a large line-drawing of a 🐀rat🐀 stenciled on the side of the hull with several fleas jumping off its back...

https://goo.gl/images/2rjWbu
Bonaparte84
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 311 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 06, 2019 - 09:24 PM UTC
How about turning the Ratte into some monument of how the Nazi beast was beaten: The Ratte as the basis of a grass-covered mound partially covering it, with a path or two climbing to the top in serpentines, and on top of it all, a huge flag pole with the US flag and some gigantic statue of a victorious G.I. or some female allegory of victory (e.g. a 1/16 figure atop the 1/72 Ratte)?

The Ratte could be panited over with maps and names of US engagements in the ETO and/or the units engaged. The whole could be set up somewhere symbolic, like Arlington cemetery or in central Washington D.C..

Just my two cents
Bonaparte84
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 311 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 06, 2019 - 11:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Would; 'Der Beulenpest' ('The Bubonic Plague') be an 'accurate' name for the Germans to give one of their own tanks???

I was thinking about how I would paint the p1000 'Ratte' & came up with the idea that, since the deadliest thing a 'ratte' ('rat') can be is a plague-carrier, the commander might name his p1000 Ratte after the deadliest of all rat-born plagues, 'Der Beulenpest'.

Perhaps this tank's german symbol could be a large line-drawing of a 🐀rat🐀 stenciled on the side of the hull with several fleas jumping off its back...

https://goo.gl/images/2rjWbu



Doesn't seem far-fetched, though it would have to be "Die Beulenpest", because the pest is feminine in German, or even better simply "Beulenpest" without the article. I don't recall German tanks with an article in their name, nor would it be typical in German.
Biggles2
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,160 posts
AeroScale: 118 posts
Posted: Monday, January 07, 2019 - 03:46 AM UTC
Assuming this is the 1/72 model Ratte, you could build it broken-down, or otherwise immobilized, on the testing ground, rusted, and being taken apart by a variety of 1/72 vehicles - crane trucks; tow trucks; work crews. The breaker vehicles could even be painted in civilian colors.