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Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
M8 HMC (TD)
salt6
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: February 17, 2002
KitMaker: 775 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 - 06:39 AM UTC
First build after a 15 year break. A little TD based on the M8 HMC. This was inspired years ago by the Hunnicutt book on the Stuart. Finally got around to building it.

This was a proposed and prototyped vehicle based on the M8 HMC. The Tank destroyer command approved this tank destroyer after evaluation. It was never placed in production due to the M10 and M36.

Assembly finished, change the main gun to a 75MM same as the Sherman. Removed the turret gun ring and substitute a pedestal mount. Since I will be making this an in-service vehicle I added a turret storage box and the storage box on the rear of the hull from the M5 light tank. Also went with some after-market tracks and they were a bear to do.

I went with a whatif it went into production, now for the detailing.


RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
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Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 5,515 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 - 06:42 AM UTC
Neat little TD
/ Robin
Klaus-Adler
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
MODELGEEK
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Scotland, United Kingdom
Joined: June 08, 2015
KitMaker: 1,120 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 12:32 PM UTC
it looks like a fantastic little TD that should be in the game World of Tanks.
Bodeen
#026
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: June 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,657 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 03:44 PM UTC
A very cool little tank destroyer. Looks good. Thanks for sharing your work.
obg153
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Texas, United States
Joined: April 07, 2009
KitMaker: 939 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 03:46 PM UTC
Very interesting look and seems like it would have performed well in action. Can you give any detail about that large plate-like section on the driver's side? It almost looks like a piece of bolt-on armor. Looking forward to how you finish this!
M4A1Sherman
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New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,307 posts
AeroScale: 159 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 11:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

First build after a 15 year break. A little TD based on the M8 HMC. This was inspired years ago by the Hunnicutt book on the Stuart. Finally got around to building it.

This was a proposed and prototyped vehicle based on the M8 HMC. The Tank destroyer command approved this tank destroyer after evaluation. It was never placed in production due to the M10 and M36.

Assembly finished, change the main gun to a 75MM same as the Sherman. Removed the turret gun ring and substitute a pedestal mount. Since I will be making this an in-service vehicle I added a turret storage box and the storage box on the rear of the hull from the M5 light tank. Also went with some after-market tracks and they were a bear to do.

I went with a whatif it went into production, now for the detailing.





Hi, Steve!

Nice work; and it's of a little-known WWII US Army subject that no one usually does, WHICH IS A GOOD THING!!!

So what did you use for a base kit and other parts in order to re-create this cute little bugger..?

As a matter of opinion, I think that in actual use, the inadequacy of the 75mm Gun would have proved to be a virtual disaster against the heavier German Tanks, i.e, the Panthers and Tigers, no? The 3-inch Gun and the 76mm Gun weren't really much better, either. Then too, there is the imbalance of the 75mm Gun's overhang versus the light weight of the M5/M8 Chassis, Hull and Turret, combined...

Still, I applaud Steve's work in re-creating this vehicle!

PS- The US Army's "Tank Destroyer Command" was "all wet" in their thinking and stubbornness in putting forward such a flawed concept as "Tank Destroyers" with the wholly inadequate equipment they foisted upon our combat units during the Second World War. The WWII US "Tank Destroyer Command" concept as such never really survived WWII...
salt6
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: February 17, 2002
KitMaker: 775 posts
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Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2019 - 10:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Very interesting look and seems like it would have performed well in action. Can you give any detail about that large plate-like section on the driver's side? It almost looks like a piece of bolt-on armor. Looking forward to how you finish this!



I think what you are inquiring about is actually the upper front hull that bolts to the lower front hull.

I still had most of my modeling stuff when I started again. The base kit is the Tamiya M8 HMC and a gun that I had laying around. I didn't like the kit tracks so I picked up some after market tracks. The box on the back of the turret was something modded from the spares and the box on the rear hull was scratched using a wag estimate.

I think the 75mm was good except against the latter MK IVs and up.
M4A1Sherman
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New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,307 posts
AeroScale: 159 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2019 - 12:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Very interesting look and seems like it would have performed well in action. Can you give any detail about that large plate-like section on the driver's side? It almost looks like a piece of bolt-on armor. Looking forward to how you finish this!



I think what you are inquiring about is actually the upper front hull that bolts to the lower front hull.

I still had most of my modeling stuff when I started again. The base kit is the Tamiya M8 HMC and a gun that I had laying around. I didn't like the kit tracks so I picked up some after market tracks. The box on the back of the turret was something modded from the spares and the box on the rear hull was scratched using a wag estimate.

I think the 75mm was good except against the latter MK IVs and up.



The American 75mm Gun in our World War II Armor used an HE round which was superior in every way to the 76mm Gun's, and the 76mm-equipped US Armor suffered because of that fact. The 76mm in the Shermans and M18s could use the TD Command's HVAP (High Velocity Armor Piercing) Round, provided the the Sherman and M18 Crews could beg, borrow or STEAL them from the Tank Destroyer Command's Towed Gun Combat Units. Otherwise as it turned out, the conventional 76mm AP Round was only marginally better than the older 75mm AP Round.

General Eisenhower had an absolutely explosive fit of temper when he found out that the 76mm guns in the latest US M4A1 and M4A3 76mm (Wet) Shermans turned out NOT to be all that they were "cracked-up to be"... Heads rolled...

So how was it that US Tankers in "lowly" 75mm Shermans still managed to kill the "superior" German Armor..? MASS envelopment, the mechanical reliability of US Equipment, calling in US Artillery and US and Allied AIR to supply Ground Support, AND by using "Willy-Pete", i.e, WHITE PHOSPHORUS Rounds if no other alternative was possible when having to go "head-to-head" with German Armor. This wasn't common, anyway. Mostly, US Armored and Infantry units went AROUND German Armored units in their charge across France and Northwestern Europe. The M4-series Medium tank was never designed for tank-on-tank combat; it was strictly intended to be an INFANTRY SUPPORT WEAPON IN "BREAKTHROUGH" combat scenarios, which is why the Sherman's 75mm HE Round was a pretty good piece of ordnance in the first place... But, but, those pesky Germans didn't want to FIGHT that way, it seems... So. What to do?

Well, US Tankers had to find everything out for themselves "The Hard Way"... Eventually SOMEONE, it isn't known WHO, came upon the possibility of using a "Willy-Pete" Round, likely in a situation of extremis. By using "Willy-Pete" against German Armor, US Tank Gunners learned to aim for certain areas on the German Tanks, i.e, "shot-traps", such as the junctures of the Turrets to the Turret Rings. The "Willy-Pete" round would explode on contact and the resulting inferno of the burning white phosphorus would eat its way through the Seals and Gears of the German Tanks' Turret Ring, and seep into the interior of the Tank where it would IGNITE EVERYTHING, including German Crew Members and Ammo inside the hapless enemy Tanks, and turning everything into either a stinking pile of jelly or charred refuse... Take your pick... Clothes and flesh caught fire and one couldn't put the flames out with ANYTHING, and the stuff burned for HOURS. It's no fun burning to death...

My Mom's Onkel Ludwig served in Pz.IVs in France during WWII. He told me that the German Tankers' greatest fears during WWII were US/Allied "JABOS", or Fighter-bombers, and the American Tankers' use of White Phosphorus Rounds...

Now think about this:

During World War II, the Combined Allied Bomber Offensive, primarily the US Army Air Forces and the Royal Air Force, dropped many hundreds of thousands of tons of Incendiary Bombs on German cities as did US B-29s on Japan. What do you suppose the "incendiary" component of an incendiary bomb was comprised of during World War II..? It's very frightening food for thought...