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Armor/AFV: AA/AT/Artillery
For discussions about artillery and anti-aircraft or anti-tank guns.
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PIAT question
Biggles2
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Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 03:25 AM UTC
I know the PIAT has a shaped-charge projectile comparable to a Bazooka, Panzerschrek, Panzerfaust, RPG, etc., leaving a small hole about an inch in diameter in armor plate. But what would the probable damage be if a PIAT round impacted against a tank's tracks and/or drive gear. Would it destroy the gear/tracks and blow it away from the vehicle, or just burn a small hole through? I would like to depict (realistically) something a little more dramatic than a pin-hole in 1/35.
thenorm
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New York, United States
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Posted: Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 03:33 AM UTC
There is a fair bit of splash around the impact site, which will bend and damage fenders and things, would quite probably break the tracks as well.
Biggles2
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Posted: Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 06:03 AM UTC
To answer my own question, I forgot to consider that the flame jet could ignite stored ammo, or fuel, and destroy the entire vehicle. Any other possibilities?
chrisgrove
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Posted: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 - 06:49 AM UTC
Unless the flame jet goes straight out the other side, which is unlikely on a tank, it will do the occupants no good either!
Chris
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
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Posted: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 - 07:13 AM UTC
"Rifleman Joseph Lapointe (at left) stopped this German Panther tank with repeated PIAT hits just metres from Regina Rifle Regiment headquarters in Bretteville-l’Orgueilleuse, France, in June 1944." :



Another view :



H.P.
barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 - 08:40 AM UTC
That looks like he set off the ammo - not very pleasant for the crew. The failed torsion bars testify to a mighty internal fire.
petbat
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Posted: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 - 10:19 AM UTC
Heavy emphasis on 'repeated' in that quote. A common joke of the Tommy was that it was called PIAT because it was about as effective as 'peeing at it'.....

The Soldier who stopped the counter-attack on Pegasus Bridge with one said that was the one and only time he ever managed to hit what he was aiming at.

To be effective you had to be close so the range was point blank, but when it did hit, it worked.

Another image of the Panther clearly showing the burn marks from flames out of the front hatches:
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
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Posted: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 - 07:25 PM UTC
Another example :

"A German Mark III Special flame thrower tank knocked out by a PIAT mortar, 1943. Photograph by Major Wilfred Herbert James Sale, MC, 3rd County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters), Italy, 1943.
A member of the 1st Battalion, The Royal Fusiliers, destroyed this tank during fighting in an Italian town.
"



Full size

H.P.
petbat
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Posted: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 - 07:46 PM UTC
Frenchy, your ability to source photographs is astounding!
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
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Posted: Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 10:26 AM UTC
"Panther Ausf. G 222 of Pz. Brig. 107 abandoned by its crew after a PIAT took out its right track during the Battle of Overloon - 1944 " :


Full size



This tank remains preserved at the Overloon War Museum





H.P.
tangodown
#494
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New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 10:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Frenchy, your ability to source photographs is astounding!



Absolutely agree. Bravo.

I had a chance early in my military career to try a PIAT, (practice rounds) I couldn't hit SH&# these guys were hard as hell if they could actually take out Panzers. Amazing.
tankmodeler
#417
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Monday, July 29, 2019 - 08:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

But what would the probable damage be if a PIAT round impacted against a tank's tracks and/or drive gear. Would it destroy the gear/tracks and blow it away from the vehicle, or just burn a small hole through?



As Frenchies photos show the damage will vary widely depending upon exactly what is hit and how.

A hit directly on a road wheel is unlikely to penetrate the hull mostly because the jet is disturbed enough such that the wheel acts as a "bazooka plate". A hit on a track will likely, but not always break it, but that's generally not terribly spectacular. Sheet metal fenders nearby are liable to be locally removed or splayed.

A hit on a hull side will leave the pin hole and then you're into exactly what does the jet hit inside the vehicle. There are many stories of Pattons hit by RPG-2s and -7s in Vietnam and continuing to fight with only superficial wounds on the crew as the jet didn't hit anyone or thing upon impact. And other times the jet would set off the hydraulic fluid and cause a brew-up costing the crew.But this is where the rocket managed to hit the hull or turret itself. Not so much the running gear.

If you are determined to hit the running gear, a busted wheel, busted sprocket and thrown track along with relatively lightly damaged fenders are your most likely results.

Paul
Biggles2
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Posted: Monday, July 29, 2019 - 11:04 AM UTC
I'm modeling a Hotchkiss Geschutzwagen H-35. The side armor is thin and the ammo bin is right up against the right side. I'm having a PIAT penetration through and into the ammo bin causing a catastrophic explosion blowing out the entire side and part of the interior.
tankmodeler
#417
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 04:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm modeling a Hotchkiss Geschutzwagen H-35. The side armor is thin and the ammo bin is right up against the right side. I'm having a PIAT penetration through and into the ammo bin causing a catastrophic explosion blowing out the entire side and part of the interior.


Yep, that'll be pretty spectacular., In fact, I'd be surprised if you'll see the PIAT impact point much with all that going on.
Biggles2
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Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 10:42 AM UTC
Yeah, a half-inch hole would just disappear in the pile of junk!