login   |    register
Armor/AFV
For all ground-operating modelling subjects.
M48A5 track question
HeavyArty
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,102 posts
AeroScale: 1,629 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 01:29 AM UTC
I am currently working on an M48A5 that will be marked as a Korea-based vehicle from 72d AR Bn in the late '80s. From the limited pics I can find of Korea-based M48A5s, they look to all have the older T97E2 chevon block tracks as opposed to the later T142 hexagonal blocks. Can anyone confirm which track was more common on Korea-based M48A5s?
Tankrider
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,254 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 05:20 AM UTC
Gino,
The M48A5 were issued in 1979 with T-97 track which was replaced as it wore out with T-142, so just doing a bit of swagging, the T-142 track should have began being installed in the 1981-82 timeframe.

More of a FYI,I want to say that the M48A5s were swapped out with M60A3s in 1984-ish and the M60A3s were replaced by M1IPs in 91-92(??) timeframe.

FWIW

John
HeavyArty
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,102 posts
AeroScale: 1,629 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 05:29 AM UTC
Thanks John. I was hoping you would be one of the ones to answer. I guess it will represent an early '80s M48A5 then, with T142 tracks.

Tankrider
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,254 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 05:47 AM UTC
Early 1980's A5 with T-142 should not be a problem. Use the Verdant MERDC scheme Forest Green, White, Sand, and Black
(34079, 37875, 30277, 37038) and you should be G2G. I am also looking at doing a M48A5 with a blade one of these days... More dreams than time to build them.

Edit: I did mean Winter Verdant

John
HeavyArty
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,102 posts
AeroScale: 1,629 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 06:27 AM UTC
Thanks John. I was thinking the winter verdant was the more common.



Also, is the .50 cal mount on the Urdan cuploa the standard one on the right front? I have seen a few with what looks like an M113 mount added to it.
Kevlar06
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,043 posts
AeroScale: 700 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 07:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gino,
The M48A5 were issued in 1979 with T-97 track which was replaced as it wore out with T-142, so just doing a bit of swagging, the T-142 track should have began being installed in the 1981-82 timeframe.

More of a FYI,I want to say that the M48A5s were swapped out with M60A3s in 1984-ish and the M60A3s were replaced by M1IPs in 91-92(??) timeframe.

FWIW

John



I believe you are correct. I was in 2ID 87-88, and they had new M60A3s, while I was there, they were painted in Winter Verdant MERDC. I don't recall repainting much. Korea is now (and was in 1987-88) completely covered with foliage, unlike the Korean war period where it was mostly devoid of foliage. But it's still pretty brown in Winter. I was last there in 2000-2002, and the Camp Caroll Depot was part of my Command Area-- they definitely had M1s, and since everything was painted in CARC, repaints were done only at the Depot. In 87-88, this was just starting, with most new vehicles coming in CARC, while older vehicles (like the M60A3s) were still in NSN stock enamel paint, but in 87-88, we didn't do much unit level repainting--mostly it was touch up for all vehicles. Due to HN environmental requirements, all CARC painting is done at the Depot Now.
VR, Russ
zapper
_VISITCOMMUNITY
SkŚne, Sweden
Joined: October 18, 2005
KitMaker: 714 posts
AeroScale: 1 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 07:58 AM UTC
One from Team Spirit 1984 with T97E2:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/6374642

The .50 cal. mount should be the same as used on the Sheridan:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/6373931

Same exercise - gun tank with T-142:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/6373933

Cheers,
/E
HeavyArty
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,102 posts
AeroScale: 1,629 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 09:53 AM UTC
Thanks. Yup, that is the gun mount I was seeing, just not clear enough to definitely see what it was from. Does anyone have a spare Sheridan gun mount?

Nice pictures; saved.
accelr8
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: March 17, 2005
KitMaker: 155 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - 02:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks. Yup, that is the gun mount I was seeing, just not clear enough to definitely see what it was from. Does anyone have a spare Sheridan gun mount?

Nice pictures; saved.



It is most definitely the Sheridan mount, but i'm not sure exactly why that one in particular.




And it was definitely winter verdant, year round. It seems to work uniquely well in Korea, hence the ROK army retaining it to this day.
Kevlar06
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,043 posts
AeroScale: 700 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2019 - 04:18 AM UTC
I'm not sure it's a Sheridan mount-- but really can't tell from these photos-- it could also be an M113 mount. Which is more likely, since the Sheridan was never fielded in ROK. And M113 mounts could be requisitioned.
VR, Russ
HeavyArty
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,102 posts
AeroScale: 1,629 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2019 - 04:23 AM UTC
No, it is definitely an M551 Sheridan mount.

Kevlar06
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,043 posts
AeroScale: 700 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2019 - 04:58 AM UTC
I'm still not convinced it's a pure M551 mount. The Sheridan mount has a bar that comes up between the forks to secure the gun-- it could be missing here, as I do see some projections just behind the pintle. But, I think this is more likely an M48A5 modification of the "Urdan" style cupola. The Sheridan cupola is a bit wider to accommodate the split hatch. I also doubt the US Army was salvaging Sheridan cupolas at the time the M48A5 was being issued to 2ID. But I could be wrong-- do you have some evidence this is a salvaged Sheridan mount?
VR, Russ
HeavyArty
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,102 posts
AeroScale: 1,629 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2019 - 09:45 AM UTC
I don't think they were salvaged mounts. The Sheridan was still in use at the time and a unit could order parts as long as they are in the supply system, with the proper paperwork. We did the same with CUCV seats and other parts to add to our HMMWVs before the tall seats were standard in them. This was a 2ID wide modification, so I'm sure the division PBO was able to get them.
salt6
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: February 17, 2002
KitMaker: 774 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2019 - 01:53 PM UTC
The flanges at the base of the M113 gun mount turn out. I also seem to remeber four bolts on each leg, so there would be a flange on the inside also. So if it is an M113 mount there were some mods done. These mods could have been done local or in the states by TACOM as a kit to be install locally.

https://31f66o1oliie10ubes1dlfni-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/M113A2-APC.jpg

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/united-states-army-soldiers-ride-in-a-m113-apc-with-a-50-caliber-picture-id526754964?s=2048x2048
Kevlar06
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,043 posts
AeroScale: 700 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2019 - 02:08 PM UTC
Iíll do some research, but I think the Sheridan gun mount is thicker than these are at the pintle. These look pretty thin in that area. I had the opportunity to sit in a Reserve ROKA M48A5 cupola in 2002, and it was identical to these tanks, and it just seems to me the Sheridan mount is wider at the base. The last Sheridan mount was manufactured in 1972, after that, only spares were supplied, and in almost 4 years From 76-80, I never saw a ďnewĒ mount in the supply system. These look like purpose made M48A5 mounts to me.
VR, Russ
TheGreatPumpkin
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New Jersey, United States
Joined: April 20, 2009
KitMaker: 672 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2019 - 02:29 PM UTC
Hi All,
Just a quick question regarding MERDC camo schemes. I read somewhere that the Winter Verdant was for U.S.-based equipment and Summer Verdant was used primarily in Europe. Any truth in this?
Regards,
GEorg
Kevlar06
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,043 posts
AeroScale: 700 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2019 - 02:44 PM UTC
In Germany, we repainted (our Sheridans and M113s) every Spring in summer verdant, but in the fall they were repainted in winter verdant-- the only real difference was we added more brown over the forest green. In Korea 87-88, I never saw anyone repaint except to touch up. Later, when I was there 2000-2002, all reprints were done at the Depot. Just another note-- has anybody noticed the icicles hanging from the driver's belly hatch in the photos? The seal has gone bad, allowing bilge water to leak out around it. Coldest I've ever been anywhere in the world was in December 1987 up near the DMZ. One night it was -21F. Couldn't even get warm in my GP small with two stoves! Two days later I was on leave on the beach at Waikiki.
VR, Russ
TankSGT
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New Jersey, United States
Joined: July 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,142 posts
AeroScale: 53 posts
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2019 - 04:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi All,
Just a quick question regarding MERDC camo schemes. I read somewhere that the Winter Verdant was for U.S.-based equipment and Summer Verdant was used primarily in Europe. Any truth in this?
Regards,
GEorg



Georg I painted my tank in Winter Verdant and my unit never changed the scheme. We did not use the sand color only field drab, forest green and black. Germany was a mix of greens and browns all year. My tank was never repainted for over a year and a half. I was A troop 1/11 ACR in Fulda Germany. I had my tank from June of 78 until I left in late October 79.

Tom
Kevlar06
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,043 posts
AeroScale: 700 posts
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2019 - 05:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi All,
Just a quick question regarding MERDC camo schemes. I read somewhere that the Winter Verdant was for U.S.-based equipment and Summer Verdant was used primarily in Europe. Any truth in this?
Regards,
GEorg



Georg I painted my tank in Winter Verdant and my unit never changed the scheme. We did not use the sand color only field drab, forest green and black. Germany was a mix of greens and browns all year. My tank was never repainted for over a year and a half. I was A troop 1/11 ACR in Fulda Germany. I had my tank from June of 78 until I left in late October 79.

Tom



So thatís why 1st Squadron was always looking so shabby compared the 2nd Squadron!! No wonder why Crosbie Saint always said we looked the best (just before he relived our Squadron Commander!).
VR, Russ
TankSGT
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New Jersey, United States
Joined: July 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,142 posts
AeroScale: 53 posts
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2019 - 07:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi All,
Just a quick question regarding MERDC camo schemes. I read somewhere that the Winter Verdant was for U.S.-based equipment and Summer Verdant was used primarily in Europe. Any truth in this?
Regards,
GEorg



Georg I painted my tank in Winter Verdant and my unit never changed the scheme. We did not use the sand color only field drab, forest green and black. Germany was a mix of greens and browns all year. My tank was never repainted for over a year and a half. I was A troop 1/11 ACR in Fulda Germany. I had my tank from June of 78 until I left in late October 79.

Tom



So thatís why 1st Squadron was always looking so shabby compared the 2nd Squadron!! No wonder why Crosbie Saint always said we looked the best (just before he relived our Squadron Commander!).
VR, Russ



Well Russ we all know that when it comes to soldiering and tanking appearance doesn't account for squat. The trooper who walks out of the motorpool with the same shine he walked in with didn't do jack. We were right outside Crosbie Saints office if he was worried about our tracks looking pretty I sure he would have spoke up. The squadron CO Taylor got at least 3 stars. I remember our CO trash talking about hand painting the tanks, they did the PCs. Some one talked sense to him we didn't do it.

Tom
Kevlar06
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,043 posts
AeroScale: 700 posts
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2019 - 11:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi All,
Just a quick question regarding MERDC camo schemes. I read somewhere that the Winter Verdant was for U.S.-based equipment and Summer Verdant was used primarily in Europe. Any truth in this?
Regards,
GEorg



Georg I painted my tank in Winter Verdant and my unit never changed the scheme. We did not use the sand color only field drab, forest green and black. Germany was a mix of greens and browns all year. My tank was never repainted for over a year and a half. I was A troop 1/11 ACR in Fulda Germany. I had my tank from June of 78 until I left in late October 79.

Tom



So thatís why 1st Squadron was always looking so shabby compared the 2nd Squadron!! No wonder why Crosbie Saint always said we looked the best (just before he relived our Squadron Commander!).
VR, Russ



Well Russ we all know that when it comes to soldiering and tanking appearance doesn't account for squat. The trooper who walks out of the motorpool with the same shine he walked in with didn't do jack. We were right outside Crosbie Saints office if he was worried about our tracks looking pretty I sure he would have spoke up. The squadron CO Taylor got at least 3 stars. I remember our CO trash talking about hand painting the tanks, they did the PCs. Some one talked sense to him we didn't do it.

Tom



Tom, I was joking of course. Although we did repaint every Fall and Spring-- so there was a difference between what went on in each Squadron. You and I were there at the same time. When I became S4 of the Squadron for a short time in 1980, The Sqaudron CO sent me all over Europe with a 5-ton in search of forest green paint so he could make sure 2nd Squadron didn't look like any other CAV unit in Germany. I returned with a full five ton, after stopping in Darmstadt, Pirmasans, Bitburg and Geissen, it took a week, but I had enough paint for the entire Regiment. When I got back, I went to the COs office with the requisition paperwork. The CO wasn't there, so the adjutant told me just to drop it into the COs inbox-- on the way in, the adjutant asked me where I'd been, and I said "oh down to Bitburg begging the Air Force to give me some stupid green paint for the COs stupid spring re-paint"...or words to that effect. As I dropped the paperwork in the box I turned around to see the CO coming through the door. He immediately put the adjutant and I at attention, and proceeded to tell us he was the boss and as the CO he could send me and anyone else he saw fit to see the devil in hell to fill an open requisition for green paint. I stayed away from the headquarters for a few days because my rear was still a little sore from that chewing.
VR, Russ
TankSGT
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New Jersey, United States
Joined: July 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,142 posts
AeroScale: 53 posts
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2019 - 08:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi All,
Just a quick question regarding MERDC camo schemes. I read somewhere that the Winter Verdant was for U.S.-based equipment and Summer Verdant was used primarily in Europe. Any truth in this?
Regards,
GEorg



Georg I painted my tank in Winter Verdant and my unit never changed the scheme. We did not use the sand color only field drab, forest green and black. Germany was a mix of greens and browns all year. My tank was never repainted for over a year and a half. I was A troop 1/11 ACR in Fulda Germany. I had my tank from June of 78 until I left in late October 79.

Tom



So thatís why 1st Squadron was always looking so shabby compared the 2nd Squadron!! No wonder why Crosbie Saint always said we looked the best (just before he relived our Squadron Commander!).
VR, Russ



Well Russ we all know that when it comes to soldiering and tanking appearance doesn't account for squat. The trooper who walks out of the motorpool with the same shine he walked in with didn't do jack. We were right outside Crosbie Saints office if he was worried about our tracks looking pretty I sure he would have spoke up. The squadron CO Taylor got at least 3 stars. I remember our CO trash talking about hand painting the tanks, they did the PCs. Some one talked sense to him we didn't do it.

Tom



Tom, I was joking of course. Although we did repaint every Fall and Spring-- so there was a difference between what went on in each Squadron. You and I were there at the same time. When I became S4 of the Squadron for a short time in 1980, The Sqaudron CO sent me all over Europe with a 5-ton in search of forest green paint so he could make sure 2nd Squadron didn't look like any other CAV unit in Germany. I returned with a full five ton, after stopping in Darmstadt, Pirmasans, Bitburg and Geissen, it took a week, but I had enough paint for the entire Regiment. When I got back, I went to the COs office with the requisition paperwork. The CO wasn't there, so the adjutant told me just to drop it into the COs inbox-- on the way in, the adjutant asked me where I'd been, and I said "oh down to Bitburg begging the Air Force to give me some stupid green paint for the COs stupid spring re-paint"...or words to that effect. As I dropped the paperwork in the box I turned around to see the CO coming through the door. He immediately put the adjutant and I at attention, and proceeded to tell us he was the boss and as the CO he could send me and anyone else he saw fit to see the devil in hell to fill an open requisition for green paint. I stayed away from the headquarters for a few days because my rear was still a little sore from that chewing.
VR, Russ



Ouch!! Russ. Talk about foot in mouth. Hey It was in good fun just busting that 1st Squadron was better then 2nd or 3rd the old bust on the other guys. But we had one hell of a regiment. With all my time active and NG I still consider the 11th my unit.

Tom
Frenchy
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,281 posts
AeroScale: 12 posts
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2019 - 09:10 PM UTC
Here's the MG mount on the Sheridan to compare :





H.P.
Scarred
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,213 posts
AeroScale: 24 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 - 01:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

In Germany, we repainted (our Sheridans and M113s) every Spring in summer verdant, but in the fall they were repainted in winter verdant-- the only real difference was we added more brown over the forest green. In Korea 87-88, I never saw anyone repaint except to touch up. Later, when I was there 2000-2002, all reprints were done at the Depot. Just another note-- has anybody noticed the icicles hanging from the driver's belly hatch in the photos? The seal has gone bad, allowing bilge water to leak out around it. Coldest I've ever been anywhere in the world was in December 1987 up near the DMZ. One night it was -21F. Couldn't even get warm in my GP small with two stoves! Two days later I was on leave on the beach at Waikiki.
VR, Russ



I was up on one of our dets on the DMZ Jan 92. I was in a tower one night it was so cold my scarf froze to my beard. I had a 6 week shaving profile because I had caught chicken pox and was quarantined at the 121 evac from Dec 31 91 to Jan 6. My face looked like I'd be hit with a spread of bird shot a couple times. Got scars to this day. It was my turn to deploy up to one of our dets and it was -30 with wind chill. Wind was blowing and at 2 am when my watch ended I could barely move. The ROK I was with was just about frozen in their old gear. I had purchased some german army extreme cold weather boots when I was in Berlin and they were much warmer than those inflatable mickey mouse boots.